element invocation guardian choices

[spook]

not trying to be rude.
it just WAS. I just knew.
there was no question of it.
which is interesting in itself because I didn't have any previous experience with her and only the tiniest of previous info on her,a list of names under a heading of gods and goddesses associated with the dark moon.

[Lost_Demise]

Why couldn't it have been an ancestor? What is your nationalities? Did she not look like she could have been? If she had passed on a long time ago and dressed in an old way it would mean she could be quite wise, and so could have been mistaken for Hal.

[spook]

no one I knew.
she didn't give me any indication she knew me or knew she was related to me.
her clothes were a singular long gown robe of some sort.
I can't recall any specific tailoring or details to it,just a long fall of fabric,grey or pale faded colour of some sort.
short or no sleeves.

all that aside,when I awoke I was sure of who I had just seen. I can't figure out how to make that clear.
maybe the conversation we had that I can't recall the words to included her telling who she was,I can't tell that.
but what I am sure of was that without question this is who she was.
sorry. *shrug*

[Lost_Demise]

Spook how many of your ancestors do you honestly know how they look?

[spook]

I never said I did.
all I'm telling you is this person didn't give any indication they knew me or knew they were related to me.
and the most important part is that I had no misconceptions or doubts about who it was I had just met when I woke up.
why are you pressing this?

[Lost_Demise]

I'm not trying to press, I'm just hoping you would be a bit more open to other possibilities. You don't seem to be open to any other possibility then it being Hal though so I'll just stop after saying - people don't always say they are related to you even when they are. I don't always tell my children or grand children who I am, sometimes I just like watching.

[spook]

it's not that I'm not open to those possibilities,it's just that .....
ok how do I put this.
if you've seen the sky and you know it's blue,the grass is green and it's not a question of it,why would I be thinking gee maybe the sky is really yellow and the grass is possibly pink,I never thought of it that way.....does that help?
I've not considered the other possibilities because I knew without any hesitation who it was I had seen.
like I said maybe the conversation I had with her included her telling me who she was,but when I woke that's what I knew.

[Lost_Demise]

Yes it makes sense~

[JuniperBerry]

One of the important things in exploring a deity, or examining the interaction with gods in our life, is to find a precedent. Gods tend to follow a formula, they have personality, and not only does this help us identify them but it provides evidence through consistency that the interaction/god is valid. There are moments of UPG (Unverified Personal Gnosis) but generally there's still some connection to myth or folklore.

if you've seen the sky and you know it's blue,the grass is green and it's not a question of it,why would I be thinking gee maybe the sky is really yellow and the grass is possibly pink,I never thought of it that way.....does that help?

This is a great analogy. Because while grass is green and the sky blue there ARE variations. If you had never seen grass or color, would you know that the first grass you were looking at was yellow from lack of water? Would you know the sky was gray with clouds? The foundations of it are there, and that would be correct, but the actual expression of it would be slightly off.

There isn't any historical evidence of Hel visiting Midgard just to visit. Anytime she has come to men she precedes their death. Spirit journeys to Hel are difficult (impossible?), it takes the gods themselves nine days to get there. This isn't just poetic lore; somehow Hel is set up in such a way that it is far-removed and safe from the ravages and fall-out of Ragnarok.

But-

There is Holle. If Hel is the late Icelandic model (there's some controvery on whether Hel actually existed as a personality, or was only the personification of a place) then Holle is the early Germanic predecessor. And this is where I think you should open your mind to the possibility of shades of expression.

"Holle's name is linguistically related to the word Halja, which means "covering", and is the ancient Teutonic name for Hel, the Norse land of the dead. Holle is called the Queen of the Dead, and resides in the 'nether' regions. She possibly lent her name to the country Holland, 'the land of Holle', which is also called the Netherlands because many parts of the country are below sea-level." http://www.pantheon.org/articles/h/holle.html

Holle does visit households (to check on laziness), and is associated with weaving and spinning (witchcraft). She also is associated with the Weiss Weiven (women known to sit by the water and brush their hair). If she came to visit and look around your house, then had you brush and weave/braid her hair it sounds like we've found some consistency.

"Holle is theorized as an ancient Germanic supreme goddess of birth, death and reincarnation who predates most of the Germanic pantheon, dating back to the Neolithic before Indo-European invasion of Europe"...."Hulda is the goddess to whom children who died as infants go, and alternatively known as both the Dark Grandmother and the White Lady," "Perchta is often identified as stemming from the same Germanic goddess as Holda and other female figures of German folklore (see Frija-Frigg). According to Jacob Grimm and Lotte Motz, Perchta is Holda's southern cousin or equivalent, as they both share the role as a "guardian of the beasts" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holle_(goddess)

Alot of information out there. Like I said, the germanic pantheon is complex. Would Holle say Hel because she knew that's what you're familiar with? Would you even known what Perchta was, or how to spell it/research it?

I *do* feel that there is a Hel being, but I don't have any reason to believe that she is the goddess of dead that visits man. Not that it's up to me.

[spook]

I'm willing to concede that possibility.
hel,holle...it's not like the name was spelled out in glowing lights.
and it's funny cuz I'm usually calling her 'hele,helle' when I pronounce it.
I've also seen a lot of websites use the two names interchangeably.
I will go research it and see how it feels.