Looking for money/prosperity spell

[watershield]

For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction

If you work hard for a living you get compensated accordingly (unless you work for a troll, but thats another issue)

If you use magic to gain monitary increase, someone else is suffering due to your gain.

[hedge*]

What a fascinating discussion this has turned out to be. Just a couple of points I'd like to make..

I don't see the need for working a spell for Disney timeshare's.
I would want my own hard work to earn me that timeshare not a spell.

But your suggesting that the two are separate and independent from eachother, which they are not.

And for me magick is not about raising money so I can have a better lifestyle, it is about using it for when I need it, when times get really hard because I am happy with what I have, not trying to fill my life with materials that mean nothing.

Magic to me is all about using it when I need it - what's the point otherwise? Why wait till the "really hard times"?. Isn't it better to use magic BEFORE then?
Being happy with what you have is the greatest step to spiritual enlightenment, but it's a step further away from magic, in my opinion.
If you accept what the universe offers you then there really is no point in performing magic - again this is my opinion, it also happens to be where I am in my life right now.

Magick isn't supposed to be used for material gain....it supposed to be used to "help and heal"

Says who?
I only ever cast spells for myself and for my own prosperity in one form or another, whether it be financial, emotional, spiritual.....And what if helping and healing happen to be synoymous with having more money?

How can you define and categorize magic?

Ok so magick is used for gain but it should be used in moderation.

Again, says who?
If that's your philosophy then cool - but it's not mine and it's not a lot of peoples either.

If you use magic to gain monetary increase, someone else is suffering due to your gain.

So you are implying that if I have it is at the expense of someone else not having??? Pun intended.

[wiccachicken]

Look at the quote above from watershield....if you use magick to increase your monetary gain someone else will most likely suffer. Before anyone thinks of doing a spell the correct way is to think about the ethics first....who is this going to harm directly? Who is this going harm indirectly....to help you get your extra money someone might have to lose their job or something might be docked from their wages....you have to think about the consequences.

I also don't understand why I have to label everything with "my opinion" when you're asking me if that's my view....fo course it's my view, Im writing it. There is one thing I said that has come from countless books - "magick is used to help and heal".

Working a spell for timeshare and working for your own money is a bit different. You could just earn the money without using magick....no-one gets hurt andit feels better when you've earnt it.

How is being happy with your life not being close to magick? I am very happy with what I have and yet I feel very close to magick. I don't need a spell to see magick....

And indeed you brought up the issue of this not being alot of people's philosophy with magick... I already stated earlier that I am saying this from a Wiccan point of view so it depends on people's paths and it's also my opinion. I don't understand why I'm having to label everything like this.

Watershield summed it up better than I did!

[hedge*]

Look at the quote above from watershield....if you use magick to increase your monetary gain someone else will most likely suffer. Before anyone thinks of doing a spell the correct way is to think about the ethics first....who is this going to harm directly? Who is this going harm indirectly....to help you get your extra money someone might have to lose their job or something might be docked from their wages....you have to think about the consequences.

Couldn't agree with you more wicca chicken. This applies for every single spell anyone should cast.

I also don't understand why I have to label everything with "my opinion" when you're asking me if that's my view....fo course it's my view, Im writing it.

You don't have to label everything you write as "my opinion". Don't know where you got that idea from?

Working a spell for timeshare and working for your own money is a bit different. You could just earn the money without using magick

But both require work and dedication

....no-one gets hurt and it feels better when you've earnt it.

Don't they?
Does it?

How is being happy with your life not being close to magick? I am very happy with what I have and yet I feel very close to magick.

Is that directed at me? I don't see anywhere in this entire post where that has been implied.

And indeed you brought up the issue of this not being al ot of people's philosophy with magick... I already stated earlier that I am saying this from a Wiccan point of view so it depends on people's paths and it's also my opinion. I don't understand why I'm having to label everything like this.

Again I don't understand why you feel you should label yourself.

This is a pagan forum and there are many different people from all different paths that come here to learn and share. Which is why I stated my opinion just the same as I did and juliaki did and WS did.
There is no right and wrong - just differences. I'm interested to hear ALL people's opinions, and this really has turned into a very interesting discussion.

Please don't be angry with me for stating my opinion and questioning yours - it's what healthy discussion is all about.

[juliaki]

Look at the quote above from watershield....if you use magick to increase your monetary gain someone else will most likely suffer. Before anyone thinks of doing a spell the correct way is to think about the ethics first....who is this going to harm directly? Who is this going harm indirectly....to help you get your extra money someone might have to lose their job or something might be docked from their wages....you have to think about the consequences.

I'm a freelance writer and editor (in addition to my day job as an editor). The reason I get huge boons of money is when there's so much work for the in-house staff that they need to employ other people to continue making money for their company. How is my working hard to help others harming people? (And before the red herring comes up of "Well, they might hire someone else", that's not the case at all. Part of why I finally decided to break down and work for some of these companies is that they *couldn't* get anyone else to work for them. I guarantee that everyone on this site has benefitted from the editing work I do in one way or another.

Working a spell for timeshare and working for your own money is a bit different. You could just earn the money without using magick....no-one gets hurt andit feels better when you've earnt it.

Why would I choose to dishonor the gods by not using all the skills they gave me, magickal and mundane? Would you find it more acceptable in your mind if I did prosperity spells to make money to pay, say, the water bill and then used my day-to-day salary to buy the timeshare?

And indeed you brought up the issue of this not being alot of people's philosophy with magick... I already stated earlier that I am saying this from a Wiccan point of view so it depends on people's paths and it's also my opinion. I don't understand why I'm having to label everything like this.

Because your opinion is *not* from a Wiccan point of view. A Neo-Wiccan eclectic personal path, maybe. From your personal view as a Neo-Wiccan eclectic practitioner, certainly. But look at the liturgy of Wicca and point out where it says that working magick to have a pleasurable life is eeeeevil. If you look at the Charge of the Goddess, you'll find it states the exact opposite.

[wiccachicken]

How dare you not call me Wiccan. I am thoroughly insulted and angry. How dare you try and tell me what religion I am. You think that eclectic Wiccans aren't Wiccan? You think that somehow because I choose to follow my own path that I have less knowledge?

How dare you say my point of view is not being from a Wiccan one. How dare you? Maybe you should take a big look at your life and see how much happiness really has come from all that money? Sure it allows you to brag to other members of this community but at night, does money keep you warm. If your family left you, would the amount of money you have keep you happy.

I would think not because there are simply other things in life that are more important. And it is because of these things that "poor" people (who you assume choose to live that way) can live a happy life even if they have a minimum wage.

Would you like it if I called you an unethical Pagan? I am extremely angry that you presume to tell me what I should or should not believe in. Do not presume that I know nothing about Wiccan laws. Having a pleasurable life is possible without a huge stash of money or is it that beyond you to comprehend.

Maybe you're annoyed because I don't see the need for $150k a year to pay for a stupid Disney time share. Maybe you're annoyed because I'm taking the higher moral ground here. Or maybe you're annoyed because I have pointed out that you are obviously unhappy with your life when it's lower than $150k without a Disney timeshare.

I never said that a Wiccan/Pagan has to live a poor life. In fact I stated quite clearly the ooposite! It's not your working hard that I am talking about. I am talking about how when you cast a spell you are sending out energy, energy that has to mainfest itself somehow to get what YOU WANT, which is more money. In order for you to gain that extra bit of money, things can indirectly hurt people.

I am talking about ethics. I am talking about the simple thing of thinking about who a spell will harm before casting it. I am talking about not living a life of poverty but a life that does not harm other people in the process.

Do what the hell you want with your HARD EARNED money but I would seriously think about the consequences of asking for money from the God and Goddess.

[Wolf Heart]

Normally I would have stayed on the sidelines of this, considering I pretty much just stopped coming here, and this is exactly why.

Someone was stating their opinions and instead of someone saying "I respect your ideas but I have a few of my own and they differ" they are being attacked. Though I'm sure you will say "How are they being attacked, I'm stating my opinion."

It is not hard to see how someone is being attacked here and I think it's disgusting. I didn't want to post a long goodbye thread on how I'm leaving the forums but I honestly think that everyone should know that it's things like this that have caused me to leave.

Members here that I once respected have grown hypocritical and just plain snobby and that is why I left. Just because you don't agree with someone's beliefs gives you no right to attack them and to say that they are not something they themselves believe they are.

Who are you to tell someone what they are or are not?

[juliaki]

How dare you not call me Wiccan. I am thoroughly insulted and angry. How dare you try and tell me what religion I am. You think that eclectic Wiccans aren't Wiccan? You think that somehow because I choose to follow my own path that I have less knowledge?

I'm saying that you are not in a position to speak for all of Wicca. You can speak for your own personal eclectic form of Neo-Wicca, and that's a beautiful thing to do.

How dare you say my point of view is not being from a Wiccan one.

I'm giving you the chance to prove me wrong. Show me where in the Wiccan liturgy (the Rede, the Charge, the Ardanes, etc.) where it is against Wiccan principles to do magick for personal gain or live a life based on pleasure.

Would you like it if I called you an unethical Pagan?

I don't identify as pagan. I'm a urban witch. Calling me a pagan of any kind would be inaccurate.

Maybe you're annoyed because I'm taking the higher moral ground here. Or maybe you're annoyed because I have pointed out that you are obviously unhappy with your life when it's lower than $150k without a Disney timeshare.

Not annoyed. Not unhappy. Amused, perhaps. I also don't see you taking a "moral high ground". A different morality, but neither higher nor lower than mine.

Do what the hell you want with your HARD EARNED money but I would seriously think about the consequences of asking for money from the God and Goddess.

To clarify, I don't cast spells for money. I cast spells for prosperity. There's a world of difference.

Now... I believe you had said you were leaving? Good luck and blessings to you on your way.

[wiccachicken]

Excuse me?? You said that my "opinion is not from a Wiccan point of view". Therefore you are saying my opinion is not Wiccan. You then claim that Im speaking from a neo-eclectic point of view....suggesting that eclectic Wicca is seperate from Wicca.
I was speaking as a Wiccan. You saying I'm not speaking as a Wiccan is either saying I'm not a real Wiccan or that my eclecticism is some form of lower Wicca. How the hell do you know what I believe in? Have you met me personally? Have I stated completely what I believe in? How can you possible know?

I never said it is AGAINST Wiccan principles. I said it is against the ETHICS OF SPELLCASTING. Read my posts thoroughly.

Maybe you would like to respond to WolfHeart aswell as she finds this as despicable as I do.

Get off your high horse Juliaki. You're older and maybe a bit wiser but you don't need to be condescending and snobby.

[juliaki]

Excuse me?? You said that my "opinion is not from a Wiccan point of view". Therefore you are saying my opinion is not Wiccan.

Those two statements do not say the same thing, no.

You then claim that Im speaking from a neo-eclectic point of view....suggesting that eclectic Wicca is seperate from Wicca.

It is, in my view. But no, I didn't say you were speaking from a neo-eclectic point of view. Please reread my statements for accuracy.

I never said it is AGAINST Wiccan principles. I said it is against the ETHICS OF SPELLCASTING.

If you said that it was against your ethics, I'd have no problem with that. If you said it was against the ethics of your path, I'd have no problem with that. There are no global blanket ethics of spellcasting (in caps or not). The ethics of my path that includes spellcasting are different (not better, not worse, just different) from yours. Case in point, compare the ethics of a pow-wow with a hoodoo with a Wiccan with a brujo. You'll find different ethics in each, although all use spells.

If you can provide evidence that there is a global "ETHICS OF SPELLCASTING" that all people who cast spells follow, I'd love to see it. I still may not agree with it, but I was wholly unaware that anything like that existed at all.

[wiccachicken]

Alright if it really bothers you that much sweetie, against "my ethics of spellcasting" and some other people aswell. I think you would be hard pressed to find someone who doens't think that consequences of spell casting are impotant but there we go.

If you want to read about the ETHICS OF SPELLCASTING (and yes I did put it in CAPS because it's important I suggest you read "The Art of Spellcraft" by Arin Murphy Hiscock.

You were saying that my opinion was not a valid Wiccan point of view basically which is very insulting.

I really am tired of this whole perdantic, nit-picking thing. Instead of questioning my ethics read the book. There are several past members of EUTM who agree with me and are supporting from the sidelines which is enough for me. And part of the reason why I am leaving. I am more comfortable with them than I am with elitist views on Wicca or hypocritical censorship (not you Juliaki).

Peace out boys and girls

[juliaki]

Again, I'm not questioning your ethics. I'm questioning the idea that your ethics apply to everyone who casts a spell. That's all... nothing more, nothing less.

[Eireayne]

Very interesting exchange. One of the things that drew me towards this forum was learning about different approaches to wiccan/pagan spirituality. I don't want to get semantic, but I do want to thank all participants in this thread for their dedication to their beliefs and their passion in giving a voice to their beliefs. I feel that I learned a lot. Blessed Be.

[wiccachicken]

That's the most important thing...that you got something out of this. I'm very glad...that's put a better light on this. Take care x

[Makbawehuh]

I was going to stay out of this.... But WiccaChicken and Watershield both... I want to know how it is that casting for prosperity means that something is being taken from someone else.

Lets say I cast for money, just for kicks. Yes, someone could die or whatever. You should state that you DON"T want that to happen in yoru spells. Do neither of you like, read over the wording of your spells to prevent that kind of thing before performing them? I do. Now....

Lets say I cast. I've been working my ass off at work. I get a promotion and a raise that I have worked for and deserve. I get what I casted for! YAAY!

Is it taking from someone else? How? If I was the most qualified person for the position and my spell helped my bosses see that, how is it hurting anyone?

And how is casting for prosperity to make your life a little easier ANY different from, say, casting to help break a bad habit, heal yourself or someone else, lose weight, or whatever?

Just because you cast for yourself, doesn't mean you're taking from someone else. There's plenty of stuff, whether it's money, love, good debates, etc., to go around. All you gotta do is be willing to do the work, whether it be magical or mundane. It's not my responsibility (or anyone else's) if someone else doesn't want to do the work required.

There's plenty for everyone- So why should I NOT work for something I want?