Looking for money/prosperity spell

[watershield]

I know what your saying and I'm not in a position to say if that right or wrong. That's a question subject only your own moral values and how you function in this world.

But for me, I look at it along the line of the jews building the pyramids.
It hot and dusty work. There's only one bucket of water and every one needs to share and take their turn.
To use magic for personal gain is sort of like jumping the cue and helping yourself to as much as you want. Ok, there may still be some water in that bucket, but now everyone else must take that much less.

Magic can be compared to the waves on a pond. Toss in a stone and watch the ripples radiate out. Sooner or later they hit the shore and are reflected back toward the source. A small stone will have a small reflection that may almost totally disapate before returning. The larger the stone the larger the reflect and the greater the eventual turbulance at the source.

Science shows us, for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.
I'm of the opinion that if you seek gain through magic, eventually what ever you gained will be taken away. Not because of some god overseeing "the rules" but through the natural order of nature seeking return to balance.

[hedge*]

I think it's quite sad that a very interesting topic of discussion can not be given the respect it deserves.

I find it quite sad that members here can not have their beliefs questioned.

I'm not trying to disprove anyone and I know that participators in this thread are neither trying to disprove anyone - there is nothing to disprove and there is nothing to prove either.

In any discussion there are differences of opinion - that is what makes a discussion so interesting.

wicca chicken if you feel attacked then it is purely from your own perspective.

I wasn't attacking you - I asked questions that I am genuinely interested in hearing. Knowing other people's perspective makes me question my own, which, personally - I enjoy doing.

[wiccachicken]

I'm already very tired of this but I will answer your question.

It's not JUST propserity spells that take away from others. IN MY VIEW, if you think of the world as a great web of energy, when you send out energy it somehow has to move along the web and manifest itself.

If you cast a prosperity spell for instance and got a promotion and a raise, it could result in someone else getting fired for you to get that. It doesn't have anything to do with the wording.....its the way the spell manifests itself. You don't have control over how a spell manifests itself therefore you do not know the resulting consequences that could occur.

It is important, IN MY VIEW, that you think about WHO you affect DIRECTLY, and who you AFFECT INDIRECTLY, no matter how insignficant.

Ultimately, the ethics of spellcasting are down to the person. They can have their own ethics but this is my own belief and if they're not right ethics then I believe that karma will come back and bite them in the ass.

I felt attacked, Hedge, because according to Juliaki I'm not a proper Wiccan simply because Im eclectic - that was the only reason why love. Would you not find it insulting if someone told you were not something you consider yourself to be? I am perfectly fine with discussing my beliefs but when someone insults me like that I'm not going to sit there and take it.

This discussion was very interesting but then took a nasty turn when I was told that my opinion was not from a Wiccan perspective.

[juliaki]

For me, ethics aren't limited to spellcasting. Essentially what you're implying is that if you work hard at your job and get a promotion at the cost of someone else, that would be unethical. Therefore, no one should work hard in life, because if they choose to work hard and another person doesn't, that person may be harmed.

There's no limit on who can or can't do spells and other forms of workings or prayer. If someone chooses not to use those skills that are available to all people, that is their choice. To me, there is no difference between casting a spell to increase prosperity and telling your boss that you'll work an extra shift to help out (and, at the same time, get paid extra for it).

I don't think that there is anyone out there who can speak for all of Wicca, especially when it comes to issues of *personal* decisions (such as ethics). There is absolutely nothing in Wiccan theology that forbids personal gain, however. Thus, it would be inaccurate to say that Wiccans cannot work (magick or mundane) for personal gain. If a *person* decides that they don't want to work (magickal or mundane) to get ahead, that's a personal choice. . . not the doctrines of their religious path within the Craft.

I do have a very well defined view of what Wicca is and is not, and I find it odd that my opinion on what makes a person Wiccan is immediately ridiculed. I accept that you want to call yourself Wiccan. I do not accept that you speak for all of Wicca. (And unless you're going to show a bunch of buckles, I would not accept that you speak for a segment of Wicca that is larger than your own personal practice.) Therein lies the difference.

The Charge is pretty clear that prosperity workings for personal gain in the form of pleasure are sacred rituals of the Goddess. The Rede also has a couple lines in code that deal with the acceptability (at a minimum!) of prosperity workings. Likewise, the Trine also encourages prosperity workings.

So if these three essential parts of Wicca all are in agreement that prosperity workings are allowed (at a minimum) or outright encouraged, why would you feel they are against all of Wicca? That's all I'm trying to figure out (while taking a lot of negative comments about how unethical I am because I opt to use all of my Goddess-given talents to create a better life for myself and others).

[Kolohe Redux]

If using magic to get ahead financially is ethical, then why not nepotism, sleeping with the boss, or giving bribes to get a contract, all tools that might be at someone's disposal, but pulling them out seems like cheating to me.

[juliaki]

I work at a company where nepotism is perfectly acceptable. It has never benefitted me, however I don't begrudge those who benefit from it.

As far as bribes or sexual contact, that's against company policies, so I would oppose anyone engaging in that action.

So from what I'm hearing here, using magick to get a job is unethical for many of the practitioners here. I would counter that using a resume, filling out an application, or using help wanted ads would be equally as unethical, as they all are designed to put one person above another in the eyes of an employer.

[Kolohe Redux]

Sure you can argue that a simple job interview is a contest to see who does the best at manipulating the interviewer, and it usually is. The part I find unethical, is using Magic to manipulate someone- whether it's to make them fall in love with you, to give you money or interfere with their free will in other ways.

[juliaki]

Sure you can argue that a simple job interview is a contest to see who does the best at manipulating the interviewer, and it usually is. The part I find unethical, is using Magic to manipulate someone- whether it's to make them fall in love with you, to give you money or interfere with their free will in other ways.

Which is why I don't do money spells, but instead do prosperity workings.

For me, I put my credentials out for clients to look at, and simply use the prosperity workings to encourage work to come my way from previous clients or new clients. It is then my hard work and skill at my job that determines whether or not I get paid.

I've also done "generic" workings to bring prosperity into my life. Most often these result in things like a positive tax return, larger than normal dividend checks from a good quarter with my investments, reductions in bills (for instance, the power company gave back refunds to its customers recently and I benefitted from that or my cell phone company gave me a "good customer" discount), being able to find good sales on items that I need to purchase, and things like that.

[wiccachicken]

For me, ethics aren't limited to spellcasting. Essentially what you're implying is that if you work hard at your job and get a promotion at the cost of someone else, that would be unethical. Therefore, no one should work hard in life, because if they choose to work hard and another person doesn't, that person may be harmed.

There's no limit on who can or can't do spells and other forms of workings or prayer. If someone chooses not to use those skills that are available to all people, that is their choice. To me, there is no difference between casting a spell to increase prosperity and telling your boss that you'll work an extra shift to help out (and, at the same time, get paid extra for it).

I don't think that there is anyone out there who can speak for all of Wicca, especially when it comes to issues of *personal* decisions (such as ethics). There is absolutely nothing in Wiccan theology that forbids personal gain, however. Thus, it would be inaccurate to say that Wiccans cannot work (magick or mundane) for personal gain. If a *person* decides that they don't want to work (magickal or mundane) to get ahead, that's a personal choice. . . not the doctrines of their religious path within the Craft.

I do have a very well defined view of what Wicca is and is not, and I find it odd that my opinion on what makes a person Wiccan is immediately ridiculed. I accept that you want to call yourself Wiccan. I do not accept that you speak for all of Wicca. (And unless you're going to show a bunch of buckles, I would not accept that you speak for a segment of Wicca that is larger than your own personal practice.) Therein lies the difference.

The Charge is pretty clear that prosperity workings for personal gain in the form of pleasure are sacred rituals of the Goddess. The Rede also has a couple lines in code that deal with the acceptability (at a minimum!) of prosperity workings. Likewise, the Trine also encourages prosperity workings.

So if these three essential parts of Wicca all are in agreement that prosperity workings are allowed (at a minimum) or outright encouraged, why would you feel they are against all of Wicca? That's all I'm trying to figure out (while taking a lot of negative comments about how unethical I am because I opt to use all of my Goddess-given talents to create a better life for myself and others).

OK, so I will address this number by number so we can clear this up and get it into your skull. I will put into simple language for you as you seem to be unable to understand what I am saying:

1. Essentially, what I am saying, is if you work hard and get a promotion that results in someone being cut loose, by physical means, no spells, then that's the company's prerogative. However, using a spell to get something you want will most likely always have a negative consequence and it will be because of YOUR WILL not someone's own decision.

2. If you don't see the difference between actually working (physically) and casting a spell, then that's you. I was stating merely from my point of view and in no way was I attacking you. You seem to be the one doing that here.

3. I never said I was speaking for the WHOLE of Wicca. I was speaking from my Wiccan point of view. It's not about rules of Wicca or Wiccan redes you idiot! It's not about thinking it's against the ways of Wicca! It's about ETHICS!!!! Thinking about other people in this world. Thinking about the COUNSEQUENCES - how many times to I have to say it??? It's quite simple to register, look, say it with me:
THIS IS NOT ABOUT WICCAN REDES OR LAWS IT'S ABOUT ETHICS.
Whether people know about them or not, or abide by them or not, is up to them. I already said that.

I was not personally attacking you Juliaki. In fact I was stating quite clearly that in MY VIEW, MY OPINION, this is what should be considered. I was saying, with no names mentioned in my last post, that if the person decides to cast a spell without thinking about ethics, THATS FINE!
It's not about Wiccan redes, laws or anything like that. It applies to all religions whether it is in the form of a spell or a prayer. If a Christian is praying (as praying is a form of spellcraft) then they should also think about what they are asking for.

It's not about Wicca which you seem to be fixated on because of your elitist view on my eclecticism.

[juliaki]

However, using a spell to get something you want will most likely always have a negative consequence.

If that were true, then *any* spell (for money, for healing, for peace, etc.) will have a negative consequence. That is not something I personally believe in, nor is it something that my experience has shown me. Your experience appears to vary, and I accept that.

2. If youd on't see the difference between actually working (physically) and casting a spell, then that's you. I was stating merely from my point of view and in no way was I attacking you. You seem to be the one doing that here.

The reason I jumped in the conversation was when you made these statements:

We ain't rolling in it because we know not to use spells unless we need them. Or at least we shouldn't...

That may be your opinion. The way you stated it appeared to be as some sort of global edict. Your replies have indicated that you do believe that is some sort of global ethic on spellcasting. Specifically:

But as a Wiccan (which may be different from your spiritual path) I don't see the need for working a spell for Disney timeshare's. I would want my own hard work to earn me that timeshare not a spell.

Ultimately, I was trying to give someone advice/a spell from my side of the Wiccan path

Magick isn't supposed to be used for material gain....it supposed to be used to "help and heal" - a quote from many of my books.

I already stated earlier that I am saying this from a Wiccan point of view so it depends on people's paths and it's also my opinion.

3. I never said I was speaking for the WHOLE of Wicca. I was speaking from my Wiccan point of view. It's not about rules of Wicca or Wiccan redes you idiot! It;s not about thinking it's against the ways of Wicca!

See above.

THIS IS NOT ABOUT WICCAN REDES OR LAWS IT'S ABOUT ETHICS.

The Rede is one of the cornerstones of Wiccan ethics.

It's not about Wiccan redes, laws or anything like that. It applies to all religions whether it is in the form of a spell or a prayer. If a Christian is praying (as praying is a form of spellcraft) then they should also think about what they are asking for.

Again, that's your opinion. Your path and mine may rely heavily on thinking about consequences of actions, but I do not feel comfortable saying that *everyone's* path should be required to think about consequences. There are many very valid religions that do not have that as a requirement, and I do not see them as lesser religions because their ethics differ from mine.

[wiccachicken]

I will say this once and once more only:

ITS ALL MY F**KING OPINION!!!!!! It's being typed by me so its gonna be my f**king opinion! Everything I SAY is MY OPINION, MY VIEW I said this just seconds ago.

And yes, the Wiccan Rede IS the corner stone of Wicca but that's not what I meant. I meant that the Wiccan Rede is not the point in this conversation. ITS ABOUT F**KING ETHICS!!!!!!! NOT SOLELY APPLICABLE TO WICCA, ITS ABOUT ALL RELGIONS, ITS ABOUT SPELL CASTING!!!!!! NOT A RELIGION, OR A REDE, OR A LAW.

I AM NOT SPEAKING FROM A GLOBAL POINT OF VIEW, ITS COMING FROM MY BRAIN, ITS MY BELIEF. JUST ACCEPT THAT.

AGAIN, EVERYTHING I HAVE SAID IS MY OPINION!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! IM NOT TELLING EVERYONE WHAT TO DO, MERELY GIVING MY ADVICE, MY OPINION ON WHAT I THINK THIS PERSON SHOULD DO. IT IS WHAT I THINK EVERYONE SHOULD DO, BUT LIKE I SAID IT'S UP TO THEM WHAT THEY DO.....IM NOT DICTATING, JUST VOICING MY CONCERNS.

IS THAT A PROBLEM WITH YOU??? DO YOU UNDERSTAND NOW THAT IM SPEAKING FROM MY POINT OF VIEW??? DO YOU UNDERSTAND THAT??? NOW SERIOUSLY DROP IT..... YOU HAVE STATED YOUR OPINION AND I HAVE STATED MINE. THE FACT THAT YOU INSULTED ME IN THE PROCESS IS NEITHER HERE NOR THERE.

[watershield]

This has degraded into an arguement between two people attempting to defend their own personal ethics.

In the end, that's really what ethics are, you own personal values. What's right for you MAY be wrong for me. There are or were natives out there that believe/d eating people was ok, but I don't think I'd partake of the appitisers.

In this case I really don't see either one of you making any headway and would suggest that you just stop replying

[Makbawehuh]

Juliaki, at this point I have to say I'm with you in this matter, but I think the differences here aren't so much those of ethics or redes or anything else... I think it's something much more fundamental to all our personalities. Correct me if I'm wrong, because you're the only one here that hasn't made a statement of implication on this, but this is what -I'm- seeing:

Watershield seems to work on the idea of scarcity, as does Wiccachicken, but from two slightly differing viewpoints (You may both correct me on this if I'm wrong)... (Not like you NEED my permission, or anything). Watershield seems to believe that everything exists in a balance, and by getting things magically, it upsets that balance and you'll eventually not have whatever it was that you worked for anyways, because the balance will work itself out. That's cool, I can understand that. Wiccachicken, on the other hand simply seems to think there's not enough to go around, and that by taking whatever it is (money, etc.), we're necessarily taking out of someone else's mouth. That... I have a little more issue with, but that's just MY opinion. Wiccachicken is perfectly entitled to think there's not enough to go around.

I tend to be of the belief, and perhaps you come from a similar viewpoint, Juliaki, that there's more than enough to go around for everyone who wants something, as long as they're willing to work for it.

Now, as for... *goes back to look* ... Magical workings as compared to sexual favors, nepotism, and... Bribes? Sexual favors and bribes can be the causes of lawsuits, jail time, and a whole 'nother slew of nasty things. I don't know about the companies you people have worked for, but I've seen a company where bribes were acceptable (that company is now in the middle of a major lawsuit) and the one I work for now, where anyone being caught so much as hinting at a sexual favor or a bribe will be fired on the spot, no matter their rank within the company. The company I work for now is very self-regulating that way, and they work hard to make sure the people in management positions are honest... A real breath of fresh air, and probably not what you'd expect from a major corporation.

Nepotism? I honestly don't have an issue with it so long as the management is honest. They're willing to give just about anyone a chance where I currently work, which means they -do- hire a lot of family members of other employees. And if the person can hack it, they stay. If the person can't do the job, for whatever reason, they get fired. End of story. They're there to find someone who can do the job that needs to be done, not do little favors. The owner of the company has a son in law who sits right next to me on the floor, and we yak between calls. That son in law would NOT keep the job if he wasn't capable of doing it, and he will not get any promotions he hasn't earned. I got my sister a job in the same company, but in a different section of it. When she first moved back in with us, she had employers practically banging on the door because her experience. My company snatched her up first because I pointed out that they might want her... Nepotism? Of course! Who lost out? The companies that, MONTHS later, are still trying to get her in for an interview. Oh, and whoever may have gotten her job in my company. Did I ever mention that there's a really high turnover rate because of the number of people who can't do the job...? As in, she went to class with ten people, three months ago, and only she and one other person are left?

Ah, the honesty of people who are out to make money.

Now, if I would shamelessly mention my sister's experience to a supervisor and get them all excited about getting the first shot at an AWESOME employee, what makes you think I'd have any shame at all about using the other major tool in my arsenal? I don't interview well. I'm shy, I get nervous, I stutter. I'm cute and pretty, but I say all the wrong things at all the wrong times, and... well, I'm odd. Most people don't seem to know what to make of me until they've had a while to get to know me. An interviewer doesn't have that time, and they certainly don't care that much. So if I cast to make things go a little more smoothly, even if all it does is keep me from stuttering and blushing during the interview, I consider it a spell well cast and a spell that's done it's job. And I see no reason in the world why I should not cast it.

And of course, I'm not Wiccan, so while I do keep the Rede and things like that in mind (they're generally good advice), I let my own mind be the final arbiter of what decision I make. And the idea that there's enough to go around plays a big part in that.

[hedge*]

I'm interested to hear why people find it acceptable to cast one kind of spell yet unacceptable to cast another.

All spell work is manipulation, I would like someone to define the difference between one kind of manipulation and another.

[Kolohe Redux]

Okay, so for Juliaki it's more like a love spell to be open to possibilities and look for a generalized something out there rather than a specific target, it does seem more ethical to me that way, but then we see so many people who can never have enough love or enough money. And I agree there's a difference between attempting to use magic to manipulate or win a competition no matter what versus a little extra confidence, doing your best or being open to possibilities- and I think the latter more likely to work anyway. I don't know how to say this without sounding preachy, but shouldn't spirituality enrich our lives and give us focus beyond endlessly chasing material things or believing we have a superior path, it's my opinion that it should, and of course I'm right (sarcasm since I just criticized people acting superior ). I did think it was an interesting discussion - back to lurking mode