I believe Moonstone wrapped everything up before I got back here What she says is true, but about the marriage/child thing Hallowhim, many of us (guys usually) want a long-term relationship without a screaming poop factory, although my thoughts have changed a bit I kinda want a child but kinda not...Therefore, I do have lesbian friends who wanted a baby and want a donor (someone they know, btw ANNOUNCEMENT) my best lesbian friend asked me to do it and I was hesitant at first so she then chose the guy I have a huge crush on but he was hesitant as well...so we decided to both donate mixed it (she was ok with that) so that neither of us would know who the REAL father was so I kinda has a beh beh on da way ...but it's living with her lol b/c neither of us were ready for a child...so yeah haha little bit off subject but that (donation) is just one of many options we have as GLBT as far as marriage/children goes
On a side note...I do know a few couples who have been together for 30+ years and have never had or wanted a child, so you see it isn't all about having children it's about love, and having that love recognized and having all the same rights as every other couple has.
MoonStone wrote:I understand what you're saying, HallowHim- though why do you discount the possibility of having children just because you are gay/bisexual? There are a vast number of possibilities- surrogacy, adoption, fertilization of a willing participant.... simply because a life partner doesn't happen to have the right parts to hold and birth a baby (or the couple has *two* of those applicable parts) doesn't mean that raising a child is out of the cards for them.
The more rights the GLBT community is granted, the easier these alternatives become for those, and all, couples. The main idea contained in all of these conversations here is that no party should be discriminated against for any reason- age, gender, background, creed, color OR sexual orientation. Discrimination is discrimination- and it feeds ignorance and intolerance.
~Bright Blessings~
(And sorry about the misunderstanding- I didn't mean to be too hard on you- I'm just vehemently opposed to any bashing going on in here). :28:
*M
i'd reather to have my own kid.... that's the beauty of that....if you adopt a child what you gonna feel for him? i mean it's not your blood....
Before everyone jumps in and tells HallowHim that he's wrong (which you can certainly do if you want to), I just want to say that I think he's probably right that it would be harder for many people (not ALL people) to feel as much of a connection with an adopted or step-child than with a biological child. Men in particular seem to have enough of a problem bonding with children that are their own, much less trying to bond with an adopted child. I've heard that more abuse happens to step-children than to biological children (don't know how true that is). And I know that for me personally, I had a great deal of difficulty bonding with my step-child. So much so that I eventually left the family and now live alone.
But let's also keep in mind that the world is extremely overpopulated and that NOT having children at all has tons of advantages. It may seem like all parents are head-over-heels in love with their children, and certainly some are, but many of them are totally stressed out and are only pretending that everything is fine and happy. Child-rearing is very difficult work that involves a great deal of self-sacrifice if you are going to do it right. Most parents are not doing it right and the result are the kids that you see today who are self-centered, lazy, can't read or write well, and do not care much about the world they live in. I sometimes wish that people had to somehow show they were worthy of being parents before they could reproduce. All the intelligent, Earth-loving people have stopped having a lot of kids because we want to save the Earth (and we are intelligent enough to know that the benefits of having kids rarely outweights the hassles). But the low-income, high-school dropouts continue to pop out babies as if Global Warming and the financial crisis simply doesn't apply to them. And of course, they will likely remain poor and uneducated because once you have children there is very little time or money to do ANYTHING other than boring, expensive KID STUFF. If you don't enjoy kids activities and birthday parties now, what makes you think you'll enjoy it when you have your own kids? (A tip: You won't.)
Do yourself a favor and read a few of the books about the childfree lifestyle BEFORE you have children. Having kids really isn't all it's cracked up to be. Kids are selfish little boogers. And since you are likely selfish too, it will suck having to sacrifice your own desires for those of your kid.
I have to say that one of my best friend's growing up's mother was gay. She had a "roommate" until later in life when I realized roommates don't sleep in the same bed.
Granted my friend was not adopted but born from a previous relationship her mother had, but she was always raised by her mother and her roommate and she proudly has grown up to be a wonderful person. She has a beautiful family of her own now.
Just because two people are of the same sex doesn't mean they aren't capable of raising children! Also, not everyone who gets married wants to have children! There are plenty of heterosexual couples who do not have kids, why not gay couples too?
In short: I think gay and lesbian couples deserve every chance to be just as equally miserable as my husband and I!
: just because someone is low income doesnt mean they're a bad parent. i'm 17, low income, & have a kid at home. i go to school, work, & im a damn good mother. The amount of money i make doesnt affect my parenting ability. Their are so many people out there who have alot of love to give and if they want a child i say more power to them. Also, my friend is adopted and her dad is one of the greatest parents i know hes a better dad to her than my biological father ever was to me.
To and Hallowhim...I don't believe what he says is wrong, I can judge that by first-hand experience, but the gay people who actually do want children want them so bad they wouldn't care. Those I know who have adopted, love those children so much you'd never even guess they weren't their own children. It's like I said before though, not all of us want children and the main issue isn't really having children, albeit it is an issue, it is the list of rights that we are entitled to that we've never had we WANT those rights and will stop at nothing to achieve equality in the eyes of the government no matter who we need to step on to get there, because we have been humiliated and ridiculed to the point, most of us, that we are becoming very jaded. Which I find that sad. Yet, at the same time it enrages me because these religious bigoted nutjobs are oppressing others while they preach love, when they know nothing about it. I believe it was Velusia who said it, that we (gays) "deserve to be just as miserable as my husband and I and all the rest of the straight people"
ok ...let me ask you a question?
Why in this wolrd in the beggining was born adam and eve,... if it was like you say it will be born Adam and Steve.....?
Why god created a man and then a woman....? to create a family (child)?
and let me tell you that i like a lot kids.., you said Child-rearing is very difficult work
why is difficult ?
The story of Adam and Eve is a story of creationism.
First of all, not everyone believes in Adam and Eve. There are many religions around the world that do not follow this creationism story. For instance let's just look at popular science, Darwinism. It's a contraversial topic but almost every school in the country teaches some form of evolution theory.
And if you think about the story of Adam and Eve (people who believe in this story please forgive me, I'm trying to make a point not bash your beliefs) all of creation was stemmed from two people? This automatically means that you and I are a product of incest. The bible states: Adam and Eve had Cain and Able and then went on to have other children. Does that mean that at one point Cain and or Able had to procreate with their mother and or sisters in order to create more children? And would Cain and Able have to procreate with their own children to create more children?
Yes, it is true that it biologically takes a man and a woman to create a child. However, just because biologically this is so, does it mean that two people of the same sex cannot rear a child? What are your thoughts about single parents? I am not with my son's father, does that mean I shouldn't be raising him? Would you rather a child sit in an orphanage/group home/state run facility than go to a home where two people of the same sex promise to love him/her, clothe him/her, teach him/her, take him/her to the park, share love and life with him/her etc?
Does it come down to thinking that two women for instance (since I'm female) cannot do everything a man and a woman can do? I'm a woman, I have a Bachelors of Engineering, I played rugby in college, I can fish and bait my own hook, I can change my own oil, tires, starter, I can build a computer from ground up, I grew up working on a farm, in my rugby days I could bench just as much as some of the male track stars sitting next to me ----- now for my feminine traits ------ I own about 100 pairs of shoes, I'm six months pregnant, when my son falls I cuddle him and make up ridiculous boo boo rhymes, no one's ever complained about my cooking, I wear makeup and do my hair everyday, my warddrobe consists of skirts and blouses mostly... etc. What's to say that myself and another woman couldn't raise my son and this new baby to come just as well as we would if it was my husband and I?
As for the topic of it being difficult to raise children ... oh hell yes. My son is two years old, his birthday was at the beginning of the month. Right now, his only response to just about anything is NO! ... oh wait sometimes it's.. NONONONONONONONONOO! And you know what? He's two, I can't stop him because he doesn't mentally have the comprehension to understand that we don't say no to everything. I can tell him to say yes and he says yes. Children do all sorts of crazy and funny things and at certain ages you can't punish them for what we would perceive as ill behavior because the comprehension just isn't there.
If he hits, bites, spits, those types of behaviors you can attempt to control but let me tell you, my son thinks punishment is a joke. He was playing with my best friend's son (also the same age) and smacked him over the head with a soda bottle. He got a 5 minute time out. He cried, he was very upset, you would think after standing in the corner for 5 minutes he would come out and find something else to do. Oh no, he came back, went into the trash can, got the soda bottle and bonked his friend over the head again. This time he got another 5 minutes. We rinsed and repeated this action about 2 times more before he just wasn't allowed to play anymore.
Do you know how utterly frustrating that is as a parent? That is just one of the many many many reasons child rearing is difficult. However, why am I his biological mother, more entitled to this frustrating experience than anyone else? Just because I "made" him, doesn't mean that if something were to happen to me there aren't other capable adults who could raise him properly.
Velusia wrote:And if you think about the story of Adam and Eve (people who believe in this story please forgive me, I'm trying to make a point not bash your beliefs)
Velusia, there is no need to apologize on this PAGAN message board for offending those who believe in the Judeo-Christian story of creation (though you certainly may apologize if you like). I'm not sure why anyone would be here if they believed that story. The Old Testament also says "Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live". So, Hallowhim, if you believe so strongly in what the Bible says, why are you hanging out with a bunch of witches?
Velusia, it sounds like you could write a book about the "joys" of raising children. You aren't in denial about how miserable it is like many parents are (yes, I realize there are moments of joy in addition to the misery.) I appreciate your honesty. If you are interested in writing more about your experiences so that I can share it on the site with young people, please contact me through email or PM. There is no better way to convince kids to not have kids than to tell them how awful it truly can be. They have this romantic idea about what child-rearing is like. You've seen those kids on the talk shows. They want a baby at any cost. It's ridiculous. They are completely self-absorbed and don't realize that they have little to offer a child at their young age (of course, they aren't concerned about what they can offer to a child as much as what the child can offer to them.)
If you want to write a blog about your experiences, that would be great. It would help a lot of people. You can actually write well, using proper punctuation and spelling. That's a rarity these days. It's always impressive when I see someone who can still write the old-fashioned (correct) way. Good for you! (And thank you!)
: The kids on talk shows are obviously stupid. No rational teenager wants a baby. The only problem I have with what you're saying is that you're grouping all teens together. I never wanted a kid, and when I got pregnant I wasn't exactly thrilled. I thought about the alternative, but it wasn't for me. Now that I have my kid she is my top priority. Just because I'm a teenager doesn't mean i can't take care of my kid. I'm sorry if that's not how you meant it.
As for "insulting" Judeo-Christian religion, well I figure some of the population of this board may be confused as to where their religious loyalty (for lack of a better term) lay. I know when I was at the very beginning of my teen years I was so very confused, I wanted to follow the Wiccan path but my entire family is devotely Catholic. I kept having guilt trips for the way I felt. I don't want to come off as , "Hey there's Velusia the Anti-Christian basher!" Catholism is not my cup of tea, but I certainly do not want to put down anyone who may be vascillating in between.
Hummingbird: I've read a lot of your posts here and in some other topics. It sounds like you're doing a wonderful job with your (daughter I believe?) child. Congratulations! That is a huge, huge, HUGE!!!!, accomplishment for any single person, nevermind a teenager. You deserve to be recognized!
What I think is trying to get at, is that you are probably a rare exception to the "rule" as it were. The United States publishes every few years a statistical pregnancy finding for teenage births. This was updated 2006... it's 3 years behind and the trend is declining thankfully but the numbers are still frightening : 750,000 teens in the US will become pregnant every year (age 15-19). 34% of those babies were aborted.
They say it costs the average family about $250,000 for basic necessities (not including college which is not a necessity but recommended I suppose in this day and age). That doesn't include the toys, games, parks, fun days out, restaurants, books, video games, "I want an I-POD!" etc. If you divide that number by 18, that's almost 14,000 a year for just necessities like food, education, clothes, health insurance etc. This is why it is so important to educate young parents or even any parent at all about children. And to think money is only 1/3 of the battle with kids.
I get what you're saying. I just want people to understand that not all teens are bad parents. That doesn't mean that we should run out and have kids either, but I could have been in the 34% that abort, but i wasn't. Now I have my kid and people assume that I'm a bad parent and that my kid's going to grow up to be worthless just because I had her at 15.
hummingbird3 wrote:: The kids on talk shows are obviously stupid. No rational teenager wants a baby. The only problem I have with what you're saying is that you're grouping all teens together. I never wanted a kid, and when I got pregnant I wasn't exactly thrilled. I thought about the alternative, but it wasn't for me. Now that I have my kid she is my top priority. Just because I'm a teenager doesn't mean i can't take care of my kid. I'm sorry if that's not how you meant it.
you're wrong ,very wrong... i don't know what to say to you.... my only dream is to have someday children. i live for that...hhhhmmmm im sorry for you....
What she says is true, but about the marriage/child thing Hallowhim, many of us (guys usually) want a long-term relationship without a screaming poop factory, although my thoughts have changed a bit I kinda want a child but kinda not...Therefore, I do have lesbian friends who wanted a baby and want a donor (someone they know, btw ANNOUNCEMENT) my best lesbian friend asked me to do it and I was hesitant at first so she then chose the guy I have a huge crush on but he was hesitant as well...so we decided to both donate mixed it (she was ok with that) so that neither of us would know who the REAL father was so I kinda has a beh beh on da way 
...but it's living with her lol b/c neither of us were ready for a child...so yeah haha little bit off subject but that (donation) is just one of many options we have as GLBT as far as marriage/children goes
