Hating Your Familiar

[Fox Flame*]

How can you say it is a nessercery of life by killing something that you do not need to servive ? or are you intending to eat what you kill?Presonaly ferret isnt in my diet,nor is cat for that matter.Maybe on yours.I dont know to many witches that eat it either do you?

I don't quite understand your first question. Did you ask me why would I kill animals excessively? Well, if I were to use a familiar in that way, it would be for a solid purpose. If I just kill for kicks, that would be abuse.

Not all sacrificed animals were eaten afterwards. Some of the practitioners would use the animal's entrails in a way that most modern witches would use tarot cards.

As you can tell from hedgewitch's reaction, it would be a choice left up to the witch if she wanted to practice this way.

[Nyte_Wytch]

Foxflame said:
To the second point: I already described it--if a familiar can deflect harmful "energy" away from you, then in essence, killing them would preserve you.

Well.... from this witches point of view- if the familiar can deflect harmful energy and hence protect you, then you kill it-- it's not there to protect you anymore. So how can killing them preserve you? Wouldn't this be like biting the hand that feeds(protects) you <g> The point of this is lost on me.....

Like, for example, people exterminate termites so they won't eat away at their homes. While the termites hold no metaphysical significance in that example, the ends of the two situations are similar.

What the !?@! Not lost here, how can you even compare the two???? The familiar HELPED you and you killed him--the termites NEVER HELPED and you kill them as well. Nope, absolutely no comparison. Where in the merry hell did you come up with this?

[Nyte_Wytch]

Why would you kill a spider, or any other creature?

Well, let me see--there are many reasons. I kill black widows constantly around my house. They like to nest in my girls treehouse & sandbox. They are poisonous hence a danger to my girls. Mosquitos are a constant pest in the summer, so their on the "hit list" as well. I could keep going but I'm sure you get the idea. Bugs and Insects I kill without remorse <insert evil grin> I'd NEVER sacrifice an animal though, thats a bit much even for this battle hardened witch ;o)

[Nyte_Wytch]

Foxflame said:
There are ethnic tribes that still practice animal sacrifice as well as other modern Pagan religions

Ethnic tribes? Well, living in the USA I'm fortunately spared contact with such. The practice of sacrifice is primitive to say the least and totally unneccessary! Anyone can accomplish what they need to without stringing up fluffy! As for modern pagans, I can't speak for all of course, but most tend to be nature/animal loving type people who would NEVER sensely kill an animal especially their familiar. If you actually *know* some who do then I'd advise you seriously reevaluate your associations.

(which they don't like to be so public about, because some people act as if it's revolting).

Revolting is an understatement! It's unneccessary and don't use the excuse your killing for reasons of magic/protection, just be honest- it's your personal desire to kill a defenseless animal for <insert fetish here> and be done with it!

[Nyte_Wytch]

How can you say it is a nessercery of life by killing something that you do not need to servive ? or are you intending to eat what you kill?Presonaly ferret isnt in my diet,nor is cat for that matter.Maybe on yours.I dont know to many witches that eat it either do you?

Rest assured this witches diet may vary widely however it doesn't include cats or ferrets <g>

[Wolf*]

How did this topic go from familiars to animal sacrifice? jeebus.....

anyway...on the familiars thing, I personally call a giant red bullshit flag on that. But then again, this is why don't have physical familiars, too much of a hassel, now I have pets, but no familiars.

paraphrasing here: Why would you kill a bug and not a cat without the same remorse?

I would kill both relentlessly given the situation. I'll kill a bug, because they are A: poison B: disease ridden C: gets in my food D: need I go on?
I would kill a mammal only under certain conditions. I'll kill a deer, because I eat it, I have no emotional atatchment; Kill or be Killed, thats how the world works. I would, and have killed cats, though I did so because they were trying to kill my cats (her name was Soul) kittens, it had nothing to do with ritual. Now, I had a strong emotional bond with Soul, she was my pet, and I loved her dearly. She was under my protection in my territory, as are all my loved pets, I would never harm her. But, when another cat comes in and trys to harm them, I am there to pretect them, and the only way? You guessed it, kill that cat. I did, no remorse. Yet I cried my eyes out when she died (in an unrelated manner). You see, its all in the situation. And the fact that my example was a cat, is coincidental, I have friends who feel the same about their pets, be they mouse, spider, ferret, or dog.

There are ethnic tribes that still practice animal sacrifice as well as other modern Pagan religions

Whats that gotta do with disliking your familiar?

[gingerkitty]

when it comes down to it if you dont like your familar then find it a nice home where it will be loved like all animals should.there really is no reason to have it killed . someone else may love it for what it is ,not what it can do.

[Nyte_Wytch]

<looks around>
No sign of FoxFlame, looks like he bailed... Me thinks he couldn't take the heat so he got out of the kitchen.

To revisit this topic for a moment. I've read here and on another thread that familiars choose you. I've seen a number of rituals where you can choose the familiar and bind it to you. I think the best familiar is one who chooses you rather than one who has been "forced" via magic, in a manner of speaking, to take the job ;o) I think it can be done both ways with the former being the better of the two.

[gingerkitty]

You are so correct on that subject actual both subjects i couldnt have put it better nyte-wytch.I guess fox flame found the answer some where else.

[TaintedMagic]

That seems kind of cruel, if you ask me.
-Taint

[Ravenari]

I don't tend to think familiars are 'pets', and I don't think we choose them. They are animals that choose us, and most of the time, what people call a 'familiar', is generally just a pet who has no spiritual interest in your work beyond bathing in the nice warm energies that can be sent out during ritual.

I do think that it is necessary to distinguish between 'pets', animals we think are familiars, and animals that actually are familiars. You can't just manipulate any animal into giving its energy to a ritual to support it, it's just as crass as not liking it in the first place.

As for not liking familiars, or being detached, I can see the logic in this - especially in cultures and times when killing animals was perfectly acceptable. There are still a lot of houses which have dead cats imprisoned in the walling, or buried under the threshold, because of the old European beliefs that a buried cat that dies around the borders of a house will protect the house.

Cats were not the regal, fluffy, loved animals that most of us have today (same with dogs), they were workers, they had to catch mice and make their keep, or that was it. They were done for. Unless you were royalty and could afford to spoil, feed and breed your animals, you basically had the cat until it didn't help you anymore, and then you got rid of it because you couldn't afford to keep it.

Familiars were often in this bracket, they helped in ritual and in catching mice. They worked for their keep.

It might be hard for us to understand in our capitalistic, luxury-filled times - but most of the time, that's simply the way it was.

[Moon_Stone]

True, Ravenari- but the key word there is 'was'... as in not anymore. I don't think Fox Flame was presenting him/herself as cognitive of that fact. Yes, times are very different. Witches of old would sacrifice at will, if the spell or ritual called for it-- this is part of the reason we have such a terrible rap- we're supposed to be part of the "civilized" and "christian" society that had evolved, and yet we were still ritualistic animal-killers.

Now, I'm a Wiccan, so I'll try to be un-Wiccanly in my post responses here, to better address the question at hand.
-Someone had mentioned the cycle of life. To further that comment, it doesn't stop there. It's not so much a matter of the cycle of life & death but rather the survival of the fittest throughout time. Then and still now, many will relentlessly kill vermin such as gnats, fleas, spiders... and yet they still flourish. These creatures have evolved to take this abuse and counter it by being super-reproductive. Cats (and goats for that matter) do not subscribe to the same concepts, and thus would be run into extinction if we began expecting them to change their life habits to solely serve us. (Consider the same of us: if we were to become a species of servants or even prey- how would that impact our existence?) Granted, animals are not capable of the same level of emotion or communication as humans, but this does not lessen the fact that they are feeling creatures, much more so than a non-complex organism, or even those termites.

In my experience, familiars do choose us. It is their interest and their desire to give to us that allows them to be our familiar, not anything we can force them to provide. The bond between us is most certainly necessary- if only for the understanding required between human and animal simply to read the signals and understand what is being offered by the familiar to the Witch. As we can not be forced to share something on a deep physical and emotional level under duress, neither can our familiar. It is the decision of the individual animal whether or not to lay down their life for us, and often the animal does choose this if it ever becomes necessary, but it should never be our choice.

It is true that we often find familiars in our pets, but that by no means infers that because they are your pet, they are your familiar. Of all the religions that exist, Witches and Wiccans are the most sincerely concerned about the environment and the creatures who live with us, as part of all life. To have any Witch offer an idea that our familiars are there for our use rather than our companionship is asinine. Fox Flame, you and I and the rest of the board are certainly more educated in the ways of the Witch-- but ask yourself how many "fluffies" or even Buffy/Charmed lovers are out there who are going to think that now that it has been said and seems to be given a "purpose", it's okay to kill our pets because Rusty has crawled up the curtains and is mew'ing at everyone in the living room-- he must be possessed and signaling its' his time to die! I mean, come on. Since when are we the most important species who can call for or even provoke the death of our familiar or pet? (-And why stop there? Using this skewed logic, we could even kill our children (or wives) for any purpose we saw fit.)

We've obviously evolved from being the cavemen who would bash into trees to make them drop their fruit, and we've made our socio-economic errors through the centuries- but we've learned from them. The idea is to move forward, and that is not a direction we are going if we revert back to the days and practicies of old.

~BB~

[Ravenari]

imho, I'm not so sure that animal sacrifice is a dated procedure, or a sign of something that we should 'grow past.' If anything, the act would be more significant today because of our increased awareness of the spirit and cognitive processes of the animal. Many religions still do sacrifice, and in many ways, haven't given up their integrity, nor come across as a bunch of Satanists (think of Judaism here) in the process.

We don't just have a terrible rap because of animal sacrifice - after all, Christians and Catholics and pretty much everyone 'of old' practiced animal sacrifice. We have a terrible rap because of rumours (and sometimes occurrences) of abuse and murder within covens, of sexual assault between Priests and acolytes. Catholicism has a similar bad rap. So does Vodou. The media has a lot to answer for, and just because we're fielding religious propaganda does not mean that we should 'change our ways' because everyone else thinks what we are doing is bad.

In fact, I know - at least in some strains of Alexandrian and Gardnerian Wicca, that animal sacrifice was perfectly acceptable as long as one went in with the knowledge that it was not an easy or taken-for-granted process. After all, any religion that places a heavy emphasis on the scourge being one of the 8 major tools, is very likely not going to have too many problems with animal sacrifice or the concept thereof.


Of all the religions that exist, Witches and Wiccans are the most sincerely concerned about the environment and the creatures who live with us, as part of all life.

I'm not sure this is entirely true. Shamans or Indigenous practicioners were here first, and I still tend to believe that they are as much, if not more so, concerned with environmentalism as a religion than Wicca and Witchcraft. Particularly Witchcraft, which has no specific 'denomination', and therefore can be bent and moulded to many different beliefs.

In particular, the Australian Aborigines, the Japanese Shinto etc. incorporated a strong sense of environmentalism into their practice. The Aborigines for example were nomadic, and did not 'farm' the land in an unhealthy or unhelpful way.

I'm going to think on this more, physiotherapy calls.

[Skylights]

Just my thoughts -

I agree that it seems silly to be ready to kill something that is there to aid you, whether it's a kitten you adopted from birth, or a really irritating bird that you hate that just happens to be around when you're practicing. I realize not everyone here is Wiccan, but I think killing for no or little reason is considered a no-no in pretty much every religion. I just don't see the purpose in killing your familiar, and can't think of an instance when that would be your only choice (excepting rabies or terminal disease, which I don't think is a common side effect of magic). Personally, I think it's unacceptable.

But even aside from the moral aspect of it... If your dabbling in the kind of magic or energy that's likely to kill you without a 'lightning rod' handy, as it were, well... No matter what you believe about so-called light or dark magics, I can't say I think it's a good idea to mess with magic that dangerous of any color.

[juliaki]

Even if you don't feel that it is ethical to kill your familiar, part of the "contract" that separates a familiar from just a pet is their willingness to give up their life to protect you, especially from magickal/spiritual troubles. Part of the strength of the bond with a familiar that makes this possible is because you do deeply love and care about your familiar more than you would for a pet.

But yes, there are still a great number of world religions out there that not only permit, but actively honor, animal sacrifice. For some people on the outside of those paths, it may look like "no reason" or "no good reason", but many of the practitioners within those religions do so for reasons between them and their deities. It's just a different ethical code....