Returning to Christian Roots

Discussion for and about Christian witches and pagans. How do you merge your two belief systems? Please be kind to Christian witches. I have come to believe that it is a very valid belief system.
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frisbee

Returning to Christian Roots

Post by frisbee »

I swore two years ago I'd never have anything to do with church or Christianity and it's God again. Yet, there's a part of me, especially as of late, that misses the church. I miss the liturgy, the chanting, the fellowship, although like Anne Rice, I continue to shun (and always will) the church's more negative side.

I'm considering joining the Episcopal church, which allows for a lot of flexibility on personal belief, and from my experience, has been very welcoming to me as a gay person. More specifically, I'm drawn to Anglo-Catholicism, a subgroup within Episcopalianism/Anglicanism, because of my love for smells and bells. The worship experience in my Wiccan circle has been underwhelming at times, although I do not wish to cease my participation in the Craft, because I still very much consider myself Pagan, and I love meeting with my Pagan friends.

I'd be interested to know how other Christian Witches, or Christopagans, managed to combine these two faiths. How do you deal with the first commandment about having other gods? The Bible in general as a guide for one's faith and life (and you have to admit there's some ridiculous stuff in there)? Do your Christian friends know about your Paganism? Your Pagan friends about your Christianity? What have been their reactions? Obviously, a lot of Christians and Pagans both are going to see you as crazy, heretical, or worse. How do you deal with that?

And on a final note, Christian and Wiccan beliefs about the afterlife are quite different, although Origen did believe in reincarnation... How do you form your beliefs on that?

Thanks, and I'd appreciate any answers to any of these questions. )O(
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Peregrine
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Post by Peregrine »

I get lesson books and newsletters from Astara. The founders there considered themselves Christian mystics. They welcome the wisdom of many faiths. I tend to practice alone. I've told my husband about it but it went in one ear and out the other with him. I don't really discuss it with anyone else and when someone gets confrontational about it, I just smile politely and say, "It's personal." I had still been researching ancient Orphism when I got a welcome note from them asking me to try them out. They are the closest thing I could find. I like the attitude of the Orphics, an ancient Greek monotheistic religion that believed in reincarnation and had a belief that "all roads lead to Dionysius."

I have a very plain Jane approach to everything as is. I am a product of my upbringing like that. I prefer meditations, dream analysis, mindpower techniques, physical exercises, occasionally tarot cards, etc. over actual casting of spells. While I experimented with it in the past, I no longer try casting spells for that reason. The incense, the herbs, etc. that are involved in the practice... seem to just "get in the way" most of the time for me and I do better in my approach without them because of it. One single candle is helpful for me at times during meditations, especially at night, but that is about it as for as the supplies are concerned.

The ten commandments were a covenant to ancient Hebrews. If we stick to that, then consistency is needed and we would have to stick with a lot of other rituals required of them during those times (such as animal sacrifices). Furthermore, I don't know of any Christians that follow the fourth commandment. The Gnostics, from what I have read, believe that Jehovah of the Old Testament and the Deity that Jesus addressed as Heavenly Father are two entirely different deities.

On a sidenote, I'm working on a mini-project/thread at the Reincarnation/Heaven and Hell/LBL board on hell mythologies. Origen did not believe in Hell. There are an increasing number of Christians rejecting the notion of hell. According to Tentmaker.org, the early Christians never taught it and did not believe in it. A lot of that started up several hundred years later when Emperor Constantine hijacked and bastardized Christianity.

I had been raised in a rigid, authoritarian form of Christianity. Hell was the first nail in the coffin for me. Sad when even a small child can see the problems and illogical nature of eternal hellfire after one short life on this earth just because you did not go to the "right" church. Then it was the attitude with women, about not "usurping authority," of "learning in silence," and of "subjection to husbands." The last straw after other issues was Evolution. I had been indoctrinated with a lot of literal interpretations of the old testament including Genesis. Looking back, I can see why I stepped so easily into UFOlogy after I left that church. It could be the only way that Genesis could be literal as far as I can see it, but they consider that sort of stuff "ungodly" as well and so... well... whatever. :)

These days, I wonder if I have a bit of Quaker in me and just don't know it yet. :lol:
frisbee

Post by frisbee »

I appreciate your response. I certainly don't think combining Paganism and Christianity is something done easily, at least not the kind of cultic foolish that passes as Christianity these days. I think it can be done, though. We see it happening in Middle and South America, in Haiti, in Romania, and certainly plenty of Native Americans continued to hold fast to their ancestral beliefs even when "Christianized." According to one of my English professors, images of the Green Man are plentiful in old British churches. So, not only can Christianity and Paganism mix, but they have been for centuries.

My challenge is to mix them in ways that make sense to me. Are Jesus and the Goddess simply two sides of the same coin, two different aspects of one great divine reality? I have yet to figure that out. OF course, the biblical (not necessarily the genuine) Jesus claims he is the only true way, and he preaches a lot of hellfire and brimstone, as well as grace, mercy, and love. But as was said in other threads, the Bible can be ambiguous and certainly, in its modern translations, is tainted. Heck, look at the spectrum of vastly opposing beliefs within different Christian denominations, who all read the "same" Bible and pray to the "same" god.
frisbee

Post by frisbee »

Just wanted to share links to two Witchvox articles I found on the matter, one pro and the other con. They both make good points, but I disagree with Moonspider that you "must" choose one or the other. It's like telling a bisexual they "have" to decide to be gay or straight. People, and often belief systems, are a little more complex than that.

Pro

http://www.witchvox.com/va/dt_va.html?a ... s&id=10948


Con

http://www.witchvox.com/va/dt_va.html?a ... ds&id=3143
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Peregrine
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Post by Peregrine »

I'm working on a Hell mythologies thread on the Heaven and Hell board here. From what I've read, by many if not all historical accounts, early Christians did not believe in eternal hellfire. Whenever a reference was made, they spoke most of the time about Gehenna. It was a figure of speech as Gehenna was a giant pit in the south part of Jerusalem used as a garbage dump. They burned the garbage in this giant pit and also the bodies of executed criminals were put in there. The fires burned day and night, but the forever burning was a figure of speech like someone saying, "I had to wait forever in that checkout line." It is not a forever-wait in that checkout line obviously because they are talking about it now.


I read the two articles and I can appreciate both sides. If "Moonspider" does not want to blend, then don't blend. Just don't go around telling others not to do it just because s/he does not want to do it. It's their business and it's their path. "Moonspider's" only experience is with catholicism and based on that, is an expert on what others can do? PWEH! There are over 30,000 forms of Christianity out there now.

I had a classmate years ago who is originally Jamaican. She blended her voodoo practices with her faith as a Pentecostal just fine. Another classmate was brought up Catholic but also did some of her own New Age practices with crystals and reading auras. I was raised in one of those many forms of Christianity but now I'm not sure what to do with myself. That is me, though. Whatever works for another, fine. I don't see the problem.

It's like that old story I heard years ago about the group of blind men describing an elephant. One touches the leg and says the elephant is like a tree trunk. One touches the tusk and says the elephant is like a spear. And so forth. Are any of them wrong for describing what they experience? Do they have any business telling the others they are wrong? Don't mind me. Oftentimes I feel like the proverbial Mr Magoo, tipping his hat to lamp posts and patting the top of fire hydrants (Nice doggy).
It's like walking down an empty street, listening to your own footsteps. But all you have to do is knock on any door and say, "If you'll let me in, I'll live the way you want me to live. And I'll think the way you want me to think." And all the blinds will go up, and all the doors will open, and you'll never feel lonely. Ever again.

~Henry Drummond, "Inherit the Wind" (1960)
Traumwandlerin
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Post by Traumwandlerin »

In addition to the first commandement (which as Peregrine pointed out is not a must have) think about "You should only have one God". So but praise to "the God", "the holy Spirit" and "Jesus" is ok? Sometimes even to "Maria", "the Pope" and "the Saints"? How are the first three just the same? Ever heard of Trinity? So, if that's allowed, why not think about more than three? Not a coin with two sides, but rather a million sides? When even the universe has a lot more than the four dimension we can experience (probably about 11, but who knows who comes up with a theory about 1000 dimensions next which explains everything just so much better). So when even the universe is known for having more sides we can see, what's with the coin? What's with God?

I think it's ok to refer sometimes to just a single aspect in God, like the Christians do it, when they pray to the saints. When you do like it more to pray to Dana or whoever instead, do it, but when your roots are in Christianity and you like their mythology or saints or whatever, I think there is no need to change the system. And when you think there is a special saint missing, just add one from another system. When you have problems of calling the "Gods" of other religions as Gods, than just call them as spirits or saints or aspects. Other religions do this, too. The Muslims also believe in Jesus, they think he was a just prophet and are still waiting for the Son of God.
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