Spirituality vs. Religion
loona wynd wrote:See your stuck thinking of religion in the sense of Judeo-Christianity. Religion does have sets of ethical guidelines and rituals this is true. However in pagan religions we are our own priests and priestesses. We are the ones that perform the rituals ourselves. Here while the lore provides the guides for the rituals and the ethical practices in many cases, it is up to each of the individual practitioners to interpret them and understand them. By performing our own rituals we come to understand the Gods in our own ways. This is why Pagan religions and spiritual paths are so intertwined.
Wicca is religion. Druidism is religion. Santeria is religion. All of these three pagan religions have their own set of doctrines and philosophy established by their founders. Haven't they? Even you say their followers are the ones who are performing the rituals themselves, the point is they are still following some sort of religious orders, system, and doctrines. Those people whose beliefs or practices don't conform to the officially accepted ones created branches of traditions (such as Alexandrian Wicca, Dianic Feminist, Gardnerian Wicca, Seax Wicca and others), like in Christianity, they created denominations or sects (such as Protestantism, Anglican, Mormonism and others).
I generally feel that these religions are very restrictive. When one mixed his/her personal views, opinions, and beliefs to study and practice Magick and it contradicts the whole philosophy of a pagan religion then he/she is already creating his/her own doctrine. One says this, another says that.
loona wynd wrote:I think thats limiting your understanding of religions. Yes religions have rituals, philosophies, and guidelines. This is true. These guidelines tell you what the religion is about. However in the three religions you mentioned, its not as strict as you would in general think.
The three religions you mentioned are religions based on belief. In these religions while going to church and taking part of the rites of passage (Baptisim and confirmation) are considered valuable aspects of the religion, to be a member of those religions all you need to do is believe what they believe. What you do for practices really doesn't matter. This is why you can have Christian witches.
Going to church is supposed to be how you connect to their God. Though they have a special selection of people who are allowed to perform the rites and rituals. Its expected that through bible study, church, and individual prayer you will develop your own relationship with their God. That is what makes you a member of those religions. Its belief in their God and basically thats it.
In Wicca and other Pagan religions its the rituals that are more important than the beliefs you hold. The rituals are what makes you a member of those religions. The ritual performances are how you experience the Gods and get your personal relationship with the Gods. In Pagan religions because you are the clergy or you are the one performing the rites its your ritual, and your experiences. The rituals provide the gate ways to the mysteries. That is the difference in these religions.
Yes loona. In other words, practice is more important than belief, yes? Wiccans and some religious pagans are not taught how to interpret the Gods and Goddesses or even their experiences in the Mysteries; rather, they are told to just experience those things.
But the question is how to experience those things?
By practicing in the same, effective manner as the rest of the coven or group. Nothing more.
I still don't see any essential difference between them and the Judeo Christian Faiths I mentioned above. Both are still promulgating rituals, ways, dogmas and creeds and develop groups or covens to perpetuate such beliefs and ensure compliance.
loona wynd wrote:See your understanding of religion is limited to those religion where there is specifically a Clergy class and only they can perform the rites and rituals of those Gods. I think you need to look at the definition of religion. The bolded points are the items I want to highlight here.
Dictionary.com wrote:
re·li·gion
[ri-lij-uhn] Show IPA
noun
1.
a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, especially when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.
2.
a specific fundamental set of beliefs and practices generally agreed upon by a number of persons or sects: the Christian religion; the Buddhist religion.
3.
the body of persons adhering to a particular set of beliefs and practices: a world council of religions.
4.
the life or state of a monk, nun, etc.: to enter religion.
5.
the practice of religious beliefs; ritual observance of faith.
6.
something one believes in and follows devotedly; a point or matter of ethics or conscience: to make a religion of fighting prejudice.
7.
religions, Archaic. religious rites: painted priests performing religions deep into the night.
8.
Archaic. strict faithfulness; devotion: a religion to one's vow.
source
When you look at the definitions of religion you can see what while many people do define religion by the types we are familiar with (Christianity, Judaism, and Islam) its important to remember that Buddhism and Hinduism are also on the big 5 list (5 major world religions). Those last two religions have little to nothing in common with the Abrahamic religions.
Religions are basically defined as sets of beliefs and practices that are agreed upon by the people of that religion. So this is why Wicca is a religion. It has specific beliefs (reincarnation, magic, duotheism, duality of the world) which each Wiccan experiences differently. It also has a set of practices that are established (the set style and components of Wiccan ritual) and essentially agreed upon by all Wiccans. If you read books on BTW and on Eclectic Wicca you see that essentially the ritual outline and contents are the same, the execution is slightly different. These related practices are what makes Wicca a religion.
Asatru is another pagan religion. While there are some agreed upon beliefs like the 9 realms, the types of spirits involved, the Gods, and Wyrd how each person who practices Asatru actually experiences those realms and those spirits and Gods is going to be different. While there are Kindreds or groups that practice Asatru together, each Asatrur needs to practice their own rites and rituals and have their own relationships with the Gods. The religion provides the outline (ethics, holidays, ritual components, and map of the other worlds) while the individual must have their own experiences.
Modern pagan religions are all about personal relationships with the Gods. Even in ancient times when there may have been established Priesthoods, on a daily basis the individual families still had to perform their own rites and rituals. Every one had their own connection to the Gods and to the spirits. This is why modern pagan religions are religions and personal spiritual paths.
When I say I am a Germanic Pagan, or if I describe it as Asatru other pagans have an idea of the Gods I worship, the beliefs I have, and the type of rituals I may perform. The same thing goes for Wicca and religious witchcraft forms. When you say that or something along those lines, even if its not 100% accurate and to the T of what you do, it gives people an idea of your practices so that they may be able to relate to you in some way.
So after reading your post above, I realized that religion offers and teaches
group-improvement: devotion and faith. I can also see that it demands a standard of behavior that benefits one's soul, body and society. I'm glad I'm not part of any religions anymore. Because all of the above can be group-serving. Religion can be its own worst enemy.
Religion emphasizes the importance of their beliefs and their beliefs alone. Their philosophy and philosophy alone. Their system and their system alone. What if I disagree on something from their
sets of beliefs and practices? Am I still part of the religion? Or I'm creating my own tradition or denomination. I'm glad I'm not part of any religions anymore.
Religion gives us label. To be Wiccan or to be Druid, or to be Hindu, we are told, we must unlearn our other beliefs and replace them with their accepted virtues and virtues alone. You cant mix because you are creating your own tradition. You can't be "you" and Wiccan, or Druid or Hindu or anything at the same time. You must therefore sacrifice the "you" and choose "this label." I'm glad I'm not part of any religions anymore.
loona wynd wrote:While I agree that religions are created by man. I don't agree that the divine don't belong to certain religious paths. Yaweh/Jehova/Allah belong to specific religious paths (Jewish, Christian, and Islam to be precise). The Aesir, Vanir, and Joten are the divine beings that are worshiped within the Germanic religions. The Tuatha De Dannan are the Gods worshiped by a specific Celtic path. Specific Gods belong to specific cultures and religions, so they should be worshiped or at least understood within the context of those religious practices and cultural practices.
You can still worship these Gods outside any of those religions, I believe. If we worship Them or communicate with Them, do they ask us what religion we belonged to? No.
I'm sure religious people will object to this, which proves my point.
loona wynd wrote:Which is fine for you. However its unrealistic to say that religion and spirituality are not at all connected and are not related. Modern day pagan religions are also spiritual paths as each individual understands and knows the Gods personally. The religious lore provides the context and basic understanding for the Gods and the spirits while the individual has their own relationships with them. The religion is the template for the personal experiences. The religion provides the context for understanding the personal experiences with the Gods and spirits as well as for ways to contact and interact with those spirits. These guides then provide the individual ways to process their experiences. Its all individual experiences.
Well, I understand that this is what you believe. But for me, religion is completely irrelevant to my spirituality and magick. When practicing magick and spiritual work, I'm doing something for my Deities, Nature and fellow beings. Something They desire infinitely, that affects Them eternally.
I serve the Deities, Nature, and Creations instead of seeking to be served by Them. The opportunity to serve provides an escape from group-serving by taking myself beyond the groups official set of beliefs. The objective now focuses "on my own practice and beliefs" rather than on the religious group or label of the person.
Am I a Wiccan if I do this? Am I a Hindu if I don't do this? Those are the questions. My own spirituality and magick isn't the issue. Even if I don't follow any specific religion, I still can do some of it's practices and adhere some of its concepts and philosophy that which is truly good for me. And when I practice magick and spiritual works it's as good regardless of who am I or what I am.
Equally significant is the fact that we are born to have our own spiritual reality. I believe we're created us for this mission. It's therefore our truest self that fulfills our own spiritual reality, not belonging to a religion.
My practices and rituals don't make me religious or pious. They simply bridge the most "Me" in me with the most Divine and spiritual in my Gods and Nature. One to One.
My magick and spiritual works are the many intimacies I can share with all the forces in the universe. They express the "Me" in me. Every work counts -- every soul is precious. Now, that's my spirituality.
Okay, don't get me wrong loona. I have nothing against you if you belong to a religion as long as you aren't that dogmatic and fanatic as others are.
Spirit Force
Now where am I?
Ah... spirit forces... right?
Gee! This is a huge and vast discussion.
I believe everything (including symbols) have spirit forces, I know I already said that, just giving more emphasis... hee
.
To me, materials without spirit forces aren't real. They are fiction. They don't exist. The spirit forces are real. Things without this force aren't real. Ask a physicist: the more they examine matter -- they see there's nothing there. But in mystical point of view, we see there are events: waves, vibrations, fields of energy, and spirit forces. Without these energies, without movements, it no longer exists. Because, I believe, all that exists are the spirit forces.
loona wynd wrote:I guess I just have to disagree that symbols created by man have their own spirit. I believe that they have a psychic and emotional energetic force that is attached to them. This force though to me is not spiritual. Its mental energy created by use and focus for many years. That energy can be used to create spiritual realities and energetic changes in our lives. Things that are natural and of the earth have spirits. Symbols created by man to me don't have any sort of spirit in them unless its created by man like Egogres and thought forms.
I am an Animist and a Kabbalist and therefore I believe that the elaborate emphasis in Kabbalah on Divine creation are meant to be converted into a spiritual and magickal challenge to man, that as Gods created, so should I. In Yoruba tradition, this is called "ase" (the ability to make things happen). Ase can also be translated as "force, power, authority, command". That as the Deities have power, so have I. That as Gods can breath spirit forces, so could I. The foundation of my belief concerning this is: "And you shall walk in His (Deities) ways", that I imitate Them. I believe I as a man, is bidden by the principle of "imitatio Dei" (imitation of Gods) to create, to be a co-creator in this world, fashioning form and breathing spirit forces and energies to the things such as symbols or talismans I'm creating. Of course, I can't create "ex nihilo" (out of nothing), as did the Deities of the old.
I believe man must be creative in both the physical and the spiritual realms.
A dead and unenergized symbol or material can be transformed into a living and energetic symbol or tool. A symbol or material, without any identity, can be gradually changed into a spiritual entity. Making these symbols and imbuing them with our own energies is an act of fashioning a spirit force, I believe. This is similar to Divine creation.
Folk Magick vs. Modern Magick
Now about modern and folk magick, I believe they should go hand in hand.
Magick started as a folk arts. It follows ancient beliefs and common practices of the folks from the whole gamut of world history and cultures, like a thousand voices harmonized into a single melody.
That's the thing about Folk Magick: we'll find everything in there -- except our own voice and the voice of the modern practitioners, that we have to add ourselves. And that's vital. Because, I believe that each one of us have to discover the magick behind all the things around us and consider alternative point of views of others.
We and also some magick practitioners hadn't really changed folk magick, I believe -- but we had made it easier to find the modern world and ourselves there by forming or following particular schools of thought or adapting or observing certain magickal approach.
One way or another, we're all still practicing the ancient and folk magick. We're just using modern language and approach, so that we'll feel at home with our magick and we did it in a way that should prove comfortable for us.
Our own magickal pratice is timeless space. Folk Magick defines space. It brings that timelessness into our time.