Baphomet monument to be erected in Oklahoma

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loona wynd
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Baphomet monument to be erected in Oklahoma

Post by loona wynd »

http://m.vice.com/read/heres-the-first- ... statehouse

The person creating the statue has a very valid point that if the 10 commandment are allowed to be in a government office building than this one should legally be allowed as well. Legally unless they remove the 10 commandments as well they really can't say anything about putting this monument up which is really the core of this.

Its acceptable for Christian religious items (like the 10 commandments) to be displayed publicly on government property (when we have a separation of Church and state). The idea behind it is that if they can keep the commandments up than they have no ground to debate and say that this monument can't be put up.

They are basically saying if you accept religious monuments of one form on government property you need to accept all of them. There is even a line in the article that basically says as much:

“After all,” Greaves told me, “the Ten Commandments still stand at the State Capitol. We are fully willing to place our monument at the Capitol, even while the ACLU suit is fought, with the understanding that a judgment against the Ten Commandments will have ramifications for our monument as well, likely resulting in the removal of both.”

So in the end they know that if the ACLU decision to remove the commandments is made their statue will be removed too, which as far as I can see, they accept and will take graciously.
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Re: Baphomet monument to be errected in Oklahoma

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I was just talking with my boyfriend about this case too! In part because the concept really tickles me (especially where they said the statue will also have a practical function as a seat so anyone can sit in the lap of Satan ... LOL! What trolls ... That must really drive the folks in the Bible Belt crazy ... ), but because it is indeed a really big issue for minority faiths, including Paganism. I was under the impression that the Satanists would do more than just accept the ACLU's decision graciously -- I believe that the entire thing is a protest of religious displays on government property, since of course that benefits Christians in this country the most. You're right that the Baphomet statue is a wake-up call that reminds these Christian politicans that there are other religions out there, but their goal is not to seriously put up a statue of Satan, but to take the 10 Commandments down.

Other similar cases:

- In Green Bay, Wisconsin, a City Hall put up a nativity scene, which drew complaints, so they invited other faiths to put up their own display. Then the local Wiccan group put up a Yule wreath, which was promptly vandalized and taken down. Since then, the City Hall has not put up any other displays.

- The Freedom from Religion Foundation has done this a number of times, including putting up a giant display of the letter "A" for Atheism, and also:
In the Florida State Capitol, its “Bill of Rights Nativity” banner is hanging. In the Illinois State Capitol, FFRF has posted its “Winter Solstice” sign. In the rotunda of the Wisconsin State Capitol, FFRF placed a “natural nativity.” The traditional Christian figures are replaced with symbolic figures and recognizable icons of science, nature, human advancement, and freedom. This includes a sign that reads “Heathen Greetings,” information about the Winter Solstice and an image of Botticelli’s Venus – all of which may evoke religious meaning for Pagans.
(I'm a little less thrilled about the FFRF's appropriation of the word "Heathen", though)

- At the Wisconsin State Capitol, a Flying Spaghetti Monster and a Festivus pole were both erected, with the express intention of protesting religious displays in government spaces. "Think this is ridiculous? We agree!” the sign says. “Religious ideas should not be promoted within the halls of government. Protect the separation of church and state, it protects us all." (Right on!)

- Most seriously, there is a case before the US Supreme Court called Town of Greece vs. Galloway, in which all legislative meetings have been opened with a prayer, and only 4 legislative sessions have included a non-Christian prayer (one was led by a Wiccan priestess invoking Apollo and Athena). Two citizens complained about the prayers, but the town defended itself by saying that it was open to prayers from people of all faiths, and now the case has traveled to the highest court in the land. This case, which will likely see a verdict in June, will have far-reaching impacts on prayer in government spaces across the nation. You can read more about this case on the Wild Hunt.


Long story short - it is best for us practitioners of minority faiths if religious displays are kept out of the government (entertaining though the results may be). Religious pluralism & separation of church and state FTW!
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Re: Baphomet monument to be errected in Oklahoma

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Xiao Rong wrote: I was under the impression that the Satanists would do more than just accept the ACLU's decision graciously -- I believe that the entire thing is a protest of religious displays on government property, since of course that benefits Christians in this country the most. You're right that the Baphomet statue is a wake-up call that reminds these Christian politicans that there are other religions out there, but their goal is not to seriously put up a statue of Satan, but to take the 10 Commandments down.
Oh I agree that the goal is about taking down the 10 commandments. Which is a good goal considering the separation of Church and State. There is a fallacy among many US citizens that the US was founded on Christian values and that all of the founding fathers were christian. They say this because they all went to church (which everyone did back then regardless of beliefs). So for me so long as the 10 commandments or other religious related items are displayed on government property or public land I see no reasons why any other religion can't display items of their faith in the same locations.

That is why I made mention of the fact that they said they would basically graciously take down the monument if the regulations passed about the 10 commandments. The goal is to get the 10 commandments down, and they are working on it. An active protest is what I see it basically being, as well as an artistic display radically reminding the public that we do have a separation of church and state and no official state religion, so all religions are welcome.
Xiao Rong wrote: Other similar cases:

- In Green Bay, Wisconsin, a City Hall put up a nativity scene, which drew complaints, so they invited other faiths to put up their own display. Then the local Wiccan group put up a Yule wreath, which was promptly vandalized and taken down. Since then, the City Hall has not put up any other displays.
I remember hearing about that. I was happy to hear that the city invited other faiths to put up their displays for the season, but the act of the wreath being vandalized is an issue. The satanists behind the Baphomet monument are aware that there will be attempts to vandalize the statue, but they also laughed it off ready to replace it and also saying they aren't sure how a person would vandalize a bronze statue without hurting themselves.
Xiao Rong wrote: - The Freedom from Religion Foundation has done this a number of times, including putting up a giant display of the letter "A" for Atheism, and also:
In the Florida State Capitol, its “Bill of Rights Nativity” banner is hanging. In the Illinois State Capitol, FFRF has posted its “Winter Solstice” sign. In the rotunda of the Wisconsin State Capitol, FFRF placed a “natural nativity.” The traditional Christian figures are replaced with symbolic figures and recognizable icons of science, nature, human advancement, and freedom. This includes a sign that reads “Heathen Greetings,” information about the Winter Solstice and an image of Botticelli’s Venus – all of which may evoke religious meaning for Pagans.
(I'm a little less thrilled about the FFRF's appropriation of the word "Heathen", though)
Considering that heathen is a specific path I would agree with you on that.
Xiao Rong wrote: - At the Wisconsin State Capitol, a Flying Spaghetti Monster and a Festivus pole were both erected, with the express intention of protesting religious displays in government spaces. "Think this is ridiculous? We agree!” the sign says. “Religious ideas should not be promoted within the halls of government. Protect the separation of church and state, it protects us all." (Right on!)
Festivus! I remember that episode of Seinfeild. Its not a real holiday but people have made it into one because of the meanings in the episode and agreeing with it. It does say that religious expression in governemntal places is wrong. Oddly enough you really only see this battle at Christmas time.
Xiao Rong wrote: - Most seriously, there is a case before the US Supreme Court called Town of Greece vs. Galloway, in which all legislative meetings have been opened with a prayer, and only 4 legislative sessions have included a non-Christian prayer (one was led by a Wiccan priestess invoking Apollo and Athena). Two citizens complained about the prayers, but the town defended itself by saying that it was open to prayers from people of all faiths, and now the case has traveled to the highest court in the land. This case, which will likely see a verdict in June, will have far-reaching impacts on prayer in government spaces across the nation. You can read more about this case on the Wild Hunt.
This is one of the reasons why the separation of Church and state is shaky grounds. All most all meetings of congress and even local smaller legislative meetings in the capital buildings are opened with prayer. Its been that way forever. If there really is a separation of Church and state I don't think that prayer should be allowed. If it is than it should be a Unitarian Universalist prayer as they pray in general to no specific God or force but al the overall spirits in the world as individuals know them. Or it should be a general prayer to the founding fathers that we do "our best" (government officials) to serve the citizens of the US. I do like how that example there you gave was open to non-christian prayer. Its progress.

Xiao Rong wrote: Long story short - it is best for us practitioners of minority faiths if religious displays are kept out of the government (entertaining though the results may be). Religious pluralism & separation of church and state FTW!
I agree with that. If they need a place in public to have those displays that aren't a church do it in a park near the buildings where all other displays could be welcome. Putting it on actual government buildings is basically saying that they support that one religion and one religion alone.
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Re: Baphomet monument to be erected in Oklahoma

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loona wynd wrote: The person creating the statue has a very valid point that if the 10 commandment are allowed to be in a government office building than this one should legally be allowed as well. Legally unless they remove the 10 commandments as well they really can't say anything about putting this monument up which is really the core of this.
I love the idea, not so much the method. There are other ways of going about it in my opinion. Baphomet in particular is a very offensive image to the christian community. I'm not saying that having the Ten Commandments plastered on a gov. building isn't offensive to anyone else, I just don't think fighting fire with fire in this case is going to result in anything but vandalism of the statue.
We'll have to wait and see I suppose.

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Re: Baphomet monument to be erected in Oklahoma

Post by Sakura Blossom »

I was reading about this, and while I totally agree they should be able to get their statue... I just don't like the idea of them putting it near something so... Christian. In all honesty, it's not offensive in the sense that they believe it, it's offensive in the sense that they are putting it so close to something that is important to the Christian community. They have the 10 Commandments statue right there, so to put something so opposite and so... Horrible to the Christian religion itself is, well, not a kind thing to do in my opinion. I understand WHY they want to, I just wish they would have chosen some place else to put it out of respect for the Christian community. I am sure that if the roles were reversed, that the Baphomet statue were to be there first and the Christians came in putting a statue of the 10 Commandments right there next to it, that they would be offended and upset as well.

I enjoy the idea of them trying to do this, of course, due to the fact that it is on government property and government is supposed to be separated from religion, but seeing as how the 10 Commandment Statue is so important to Christians, they could have found a better place (while still on Government grounds) to put it.

That's just my personal opinion, of course. (: But I'm not one to like conflict either. Haha.
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Re: Baphomet monument to be erected in Oklahoma

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loona wynd wrote:Oh I agree that the goal is about taking down the 10 commandments. Which is a good goal considering the separation of Church and State.
Oh, haha, must have misunderstood you earlier, but it seems like we are on the same page!
loona wynd wrote:I do like how that example there you gave was open to non-christian prayer. Its progress.
It's "progress" in the sense that even just 20 years ago, one would never be able to imagine a Wiccan leading a government body in prayer, but it's still not as ideal as complete separate of church and state. Of the hundreds of times that the Town of Greece opened a legislative session with prayer, only 4 prayers were non-Christian. By permitting prayer in public spaces in areas that are heavily dominated by any one faith, it's kind of a de facto admission that a certain faith is given preference.
TwilightDancer wrote:Baphomet in particular is a very offensive image to the christian community.
Sakura Blossom wrote:They have the 10 Commandments statue right there, so to put something so opposite and so... Horrible to the Christian religion itself is, well, not a kind thing to do in my opinion
It's true that the Satanists are going out of their way to be very deliberately offensive, but truthfully, even when people have put up tasteful and serious displays of their faith (e.g. a Wiccan Yule wreath, or a statue of a Hindu deity), the Christians in those communities were equally offended and considered those displays just as ridiculous and threatening to Christianity as the statue of Baphomet. A pentacle in a wreath is seen as just as "devil-worshipping" as the Baphomet statue. So in this case, I have little to no sympathy for their ignorance. The Satanist statue does a really good job of hammering the point home, and they don't face a lot of the same kinds of challenges that practitioners of other persecuted minority faiths face (e.g. the Satanists are actively courting criticism and don't really care, whereas there are Pagans who, if they stood up for their faith in earnest, may really lose their jobs, get kicked out of schools, etc.)
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Re: Baphomet monument to be erected in Oklahoma

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I like how this article came out on May 1st :twisted: and the way they covered him up so discreetly with a loin cloth. When you said children could sit on his lap I was like whaaaa :shock: ...ok, but after viewing the sculpture, it's quite good. It really aught to go on tour to every federal building, because the separation...ain't there. Image But hey....at least we can worship whom we choose, and for that I am grateful. :mrgreen:
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Re: Baphomet monument to be erected in Oklahoma

Post by Firebird »

oh crap...I forgot to add... OH MY GOD!!...if that thing is going to be cast in bronze, it is going to cost a small fortune...does the CoS really have that much money ???? wow.
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Re: Baphomet monument to be erected in Oklahoma

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oh crap...I forgot to add... OH MY GOD!!...if that thing is going to be cast in bronze, it is going to cost a small fortune...does the CoS really have that much money ???? wow.
Apparently they started a Kickstarter for $20,000, and they got $28,000 after their cause went viral!
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Re: Baphomet monument to be erected in Oklahoma

Post by Lightbringer »

Oh yeah, I saw that a few days ago too...haha. I love Satanic humor, although this is kind of an expensive form of trolling. What are they going to do with it if the lawsuit against the 10 commandments is successful and all religious items need to be removed?

Honestly, it doesn't bother me when Christians put up symbols of their faith in public places, because if that was my space I would want to have the freedom to do the same thing with my religion. They aren't trying to shove it down your throat (in most cases), they're just displaying their pride and joy.

I worry about all the people who protest and file lawsuits against religious displays, because if we keep placing restrictions on people like this, then...nobody will have any "freedom" to display their religion at all, not even minorities like us.
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Re: Baphomet monument to be erected in Oklahoma

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Lightbringer wrote:Oh yeah, I saw that a few days ago too...haha. I love Satanic humor, although this is kind of an expensive form of trolling. What are they going to do with it if the lawsuit against the 10 commandments is successful and all religious items need to be removed?
I think their leader said that they would take the bronze statue to the other courthouses across the country where there are 10 Commandment statues.
nobody will have any "freedom" to display their religion at all, not even minorities like us.
But there's a difference between religious displays, say, in front of your home, and religious displays in government spaces. The latter says to me that my spiritual and religious values are not represented by our legislators, and that I may not be able to expect that someone of my faith will be treated equally and fairly as someone of the dominant faith. I don't care if you have bumper stickers on your car, or your nativity scene in front of your house, but I do care that I am taught that evolution is as scientifically valid as God creating the earth, or being forced to pray in school, etc.
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Re: Baphomet monument to be erected in Oklahoma

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Xiao Rong wrote: whereas there are Pagans who, if they stood up for their faith in earnest, may really lose their jobs
That's me, and that's the reason im still in the "broom closet" to everyone except my husband. The people in my community are very christian, I come in contact with very religious people through my job everyday and they are the kind of people that would "raise hell" if you don't agree with them. So i'm basically forced to agree with them and send them on their way, so I don't lose my job. After all, I can't exactly disagree with a customer. Is it right? Of course not, but I still can't bring myself to think it's okay to offend them with a Baphomet statue right next to something they hold sacred. It's just wrong-to me at least.

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Re: Baphomet monument to be erected in Oklahoma

Post by Echo_of_shadows »

I say let them have their Baphomet and sit on him too. At least he's not depicted with male and female genitalia. We don't want the kids more confused than necessary. :roll: If they allow him to be displayed, it would be a great opportunity to teach children about religious tolerance. But I just don't see that happening.
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Re: Baphomet monument to be erected in Oklahoma

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Echo_of_shadows wrote:I say let them have their Baphomet and sit on him too. At least he's not depicted with male and female genitalia. We don't want the kids more confused than necessary. :roll: If they allow him to be displayed, it would be a great opportunity to teach children about religious tolerance. But I just don't see that happening.
They have no grounds to not allow the statue. If one religion can have a monument in a government building than all religions can. There is a reason this battle is going to take a while for the ACLU.

I was asked about how I feel about the "In God we Trust" and "Under God" in the pledge of alliegence. This was my responce:

Actually I do have issues with the phrase "In God We Trust" on our money. It hasn't always been in there.

" From Treasury Department records it appears that the first suggestion that God be recognized on U.S. coinage can be traced to a letter addressed to the Secretary of Treasury from a minister in 1861. An Act of Congress, approved on April 11, 1864, authorized the coinage of two-cent coins upon which the motto first appeared.

The motto was omitted from the new gold coins issued in 1907, causing a storm of public criticism. As a result, legislation passed in May 1908 made "In God We Trust" mandatory on all coins on which it had previously appeared.

Legislation approved July 11, 1955, made the appearance of "In God We Trust" mandatory on all coins and paper currency of the United States. By Act of July 30, 1956, "In God We Trust" became the national motto of the United States.

Several years ago, the appearance of "In God We Trust" on our money was challenged in the federal courts. The challenge was rejected by the lower federal courts, and the Supreme Court of the United States declined to review the case. "-source

Like the pledge of Allegiance didn't always have "Under God" in it. That was included In 1954, in response to the Communist threat of the times. It shouldn't be there.

The original pledge read:

"I pledge allegiance to my Flag and the Republic for which it stands, one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."

In 1923, the words, "the Flag of the United States of America" were added. At this time it read:

"I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands, one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."

In 1954, in response to the Communist threat of the times, President Eisenhower encouraged Congress to add the words "under God," creating the 31-word pledge we say today. Bellamy's daughter objected to this alteration. Today it reads:

"I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all." source
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Re: Baphomet monument to be erected in Oklahoma

Post by loona wynd »

Xiao Rong wrote:
loona wynd wrote:Oh I agree that the goal is about taking down the 10 commandments. Which is a good goal considering the separation of Church and State.
Oh, haha, must have misunderstood you earlier, but it seems like we are on the same page!
Basically the whole thing is a protest about having religious iconography and sacred items in a Government building. So long as the 10 commandments are in any government building this statue has a right to be there.
Xiao Rong wrote:
loona wynd wrote:I do like how that example there you gave was open to non-christian prayer. Its progress.
It's "progress" in the sense that even just 20 years ago, one would never be able to imagine a Wiccan leading a government body in prayer, but it's still not as ideal as complete separate of church and state.
I'm with you on that. However the fact that they have had non-christian prayers (even if only 4 times) shows that they are starting to accept that other faiths need to be represented. If they are going to pray before a government meeting than every faith should have a chance to pray over the meeting.

I am with you in that I dont believe that they should pray in the government before meetings. I feel that should be no differnt than the prayer in schools issue. While I support the right to have time and space provided for prayer in school (Muslims have a very strict prayer cycle and a school system in my area had to make acceptances for it) unless you are allowing all faiths to pray and all prayers to be said no prayer should be guided in school. The providing a place for students to go and pray or meditate if they need wouldn't be leading the prayer but giving them a place to go and be respectful.
Xiao Rong wrote:Of the hundreds of times that the Town of Greece opened a legislative session with prayer, only 4 prayers were non-Christian. By permitting prayer in public spaces in areas that are heavily dominated by any one faith, it's kind of a de facto admission that a certain faith is given preference.
And again I wont deny that. Part of the issue is the fact that there is a fallacy that this Government (the US Government) was formed under Christian Ideals and that we are a Christian Nation when that is not true.
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