Pagan Christian

[RoseRed92]

Like many of you, I have come to Wicca after years of Christian indoctrination. As such, I experience a lot of conflicting emotions about following a Pagan path. While the Bible pretty clearly forbids any sort of witchcraft, I do find so many similarities between Christianity and Paganism that I feel will help any other pagans who are struggling with their previous faith as I struggle:

Firstly, the Trinity. The Father, the Son, the Holy Spirit. Three sides of one coin. I believe that the Holy Spirit is the feminine side of the Trinity; the Mother. I believe the Trinity is a familial unit... Pagan. Only God and the Spirit were present at the creation in Genesis... To me, this makes sense and helps ease the conversion to a different path.

Secondly, the issue of magic. The movement of energies. Many Christians don't realize that prayer is magical. It focuses their intent, it begins to influence energies, it has an affect on people through the spiritual plane. Baptism and Lord's supper are magical. Like my altar and certain rituals represent the state of my spirit and how I wish my heart or the universe to move, so baptism and The Lord's Supper represent the conversion to Christ's path.

While I am following a different path and don't fear repercussion from the Christian God due to my dealings with magic, I do still hold some guilt over it all... Due to indoctrination. These little comparisons and observations have just helped me immensely in my journey to self discovery... Just realizing that all religion is at the core very similar. God is everywhere... He can't be confined to black and white words on a page for me anymore!

[loona wynd]

How do you feel about other Gods from other pantheons (like Odin, Ares, Ludgh, Loki,Thoth, Horus, etc) how about Goddesses (Isis, Aprhrodite, Athena, Hathor, Firgga, Freya, etc?)? I'm just wondering how you feel about polytheism.

[RoseRed92]

I feel that they are not perfect and all knowing. I have only read their stories, not sought them out and met with them, though.

I was speaking with my sister the other night, and she happened to say something I found interesting: she said the various gods and goddesses and pantheons may be personifications of aspects of our human nature, explaining that that is why they can't be perfect. I suppose that being uncomfortable with certain gods and goddesses could mean I'm also uncomfortable with the aspect of humanity that that deity represents. Maybe Hades makes me uncomfortable; I may need to work on my view of death, and such.

Of course, that view of pantheons leans on the atheist side of things, and I'm not an atheist by any means. I'm very new, still studying, figuring out myself for the first time in forever, trying to find a foothold where I can stand. what are your thoughts?

[Xiao Rong]

she said the various gods and goddesses and pantheons may be personifications of aspects of our human nature, explaining that that is why they can't be perfect. I suppose that being uncomfortable with certain gods and goddesses could mean I'm also uncomfortable with the aspect of humanity that that deity represents. Maybe Hades makes me uncomfortable; I may need to work on my view of death, and such.

Hey Rose Red! What you described here sounds pretty close to how I approach the gods and goddesses, and approaching the gods as part of ourselves and as reflections of human nature (i.e. archetypes). You're definitely not alone.

Of course, that view of pantheons leans on the atheist side of things, and I'm not an atheist by any means. I'm very new, still studying, figuring out myself for the first time in forever, trying to find a foot hole where I can stand. what are your thoughts?

You might be interested in a post I wrote as a resource for Pagans who don't believe in the literal existence of gods. Hope it helps!

[loona wynd]

I feel that they are not perfect and all knowing. I have only read their stories, not sought them out and met with them, though.

I would say that if by perfect you are going by the concept of a God from the Christian view you are quite correct. If you believe that they are "perfect" in that they are who they are and what they were always intended to be than they are perfect. I personally consider the Gods to be perfect in that they are perfectly themselves. They will never be anything other than who and what they are.

I also agree that they are not all knowing. Though they have knowledge and wisdom way beyond what humans have. There are some Gods who have more knowledge and wisdom than other Gods. That is also why Gods have specific jobs and positions within pantheons. They have roles to fulfill and to that as best they can, for that is who and what they are. They know everything they need for those roles and tasks.

I was speaking with my sister the other night, and she happened to say something I found interesting: she said the various gods and goddesses and pantheons may be personifications of aspects of our human nature, explaining that that is why they can't be perfect.

This is known as the archetype theory. Its a common view among those who don't really believe in Gods as individual beings but as energetic forces and or psychological concepts. Its often used by non-theistic magicians and witches (those who practice magic and witchcraft without the belief in or aid of deities) as a way to connect to those energetic forces. There are times I have shared this view and concept, but most of the time I don't share this view and concept.

I suppose that being uncomfortable with certain gods and goddesses could mean I'm also uncomfortable with the aspect of humanity that that deity represents. Maybe Hades makes me uncomfortable; I may need to work on my view of death, and such.

That can be part of it. I have had Gods come into my life that have made me deal with and face those uncomfortable aspects of myself many times. Sometimes Gods will come into our lives to help us work on issues we need to face and then leave us. Other Gods will be with us for our entire lives. Gods are very human in that respect.

Of course, that view of pantheons leans on the atheist side of things, and I'm not an atheist by any means.

I wouldn't call it atheist. I'd call it non-theist. There is a difference. A non-theist doesnt work with beings known as deities, but may work with spirits and spirit forces. An atheist just doesn't believe in deities. You can believe in them but not have names or concepts of them. That would be a non-theist, or you can believe in the forces that are out there and not call them Gods.

I'm very new, still studying, figuring out myself for the first time in forever, trying to find a foot hole where I can stand.

I can understand and respect that. I was just wondering if you considered them Gods in their own right or if you thought that they were facets of a larger God and Goddess or what have you. It seems right now you aren't sure about that and that is fine and perfectly ok. Its ok to even never have any relationships with these other deities.

what are your thoughts?

I am an omnitheist. I believe that all forms and concepts of the divine are real and true. I also believe that the various beings in each religious practice are individual beings. So in that respect I am a hard polytheist as well. Basically I believe that all Gods are individual beings and are unique to their individual paths. I believe the Norse Gods are separate from the Greek which are separate from the Roman, which are different from the Celtic and Egyptian and so forth. I also believe that there is a God and Goddess who is worshiped that many believe to be made up of the archetypes and energetic forces of the individual deities, but is not those deities. Its sort of a paradox in some ways.

[treef0lk]

I must be straightforward when saying this, but the spiritual perspective you are heading towards, which is taking it upon yourself, as a believer, to disregard the source texts of your Abrahamic religion and saying that the original texts by those who were accepted as part of biblical canon as authorities on what is representative of their religion, is directly contrary to the fundamentals of your presented beliefs. I wouldn't be so quick to say that you don't fear reprocussions for your practice of Witchcraft/magic(k) because 'all of them are doing the same,' as there are parts of the Old Testament that should be pause for you to reconsider your position, and remember that it might all be magic(k) to you, but there are incompatible practices and systems and some things don't go together and cause conflict.

First, there is the story of King Saul of Israel asking a Witch to summon the spirit of Samuel, and after being summoned, Samuel admonishes King Saul for disobeying God, and predicts a massive loss in battle for him. King Saul also drove out necromancers and sorcerers while having done so himself. Then there are the stories like, Solomon 'fell into idolatry,' the story of Moses before a Pharoah, where their story states that the Egyptian magicians turned rods into snakes, and Moses' rod turned into a snake that 'gobbled up theirs,'...the Old Testament talks heavily about being against the religious practices of other peoples, speaks of destroying the sacred sites and temples of those of other religions, as well as the Seven Noahide Laws (Christians would be Noahides) which talks about honoring/believing/acknowledging only one God and not to blaspheme that God...and to them it applies to all people, meaning there is a continued desire to assert that belief. These are only some available examples.

The reason for those examples, in reference to Christianity, is because Jesus was, according to Christianity, the Jewish messiah--an authority on the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob (renamed Israel by an angel according to the book of Genesis), and thus, if you believe Jesus to be that authority, and that Jesus fulfilled and not oppose their laws, and if their previous prophets and texts have stories about all the things I mentioned above, I do not see how your reasoning would lead you to believe that your activities are not contrary to the religion to which you adhere. What you are professing is not Wicca, nor is it compatible with Wicca though that point is debatable. However, Mary is not equivalent to a/The Goddess, and there are fundamental points of incompatibility to consider, so I'd suggest reconsidering your identity of Pagan/Wiccan, as VooDoo (Catholic influenced) or hoodoo (more Protestant/General Christian influenced) might be more appropriate for your practice by what you've described.

[random417]

You may also do well to look at the teachings of the Kabbalah, Gnostic Christianity, and High Magick. Much of that is pretty close to what you're describing, although there are some differences. I'm hardly an expert in the Gnostic stuff, but I know most of the other stuff pretty well, if you get hung up on something feel free to ask.

[loona wynd]

You may also do well to look at the teachings of the Kabbalah, Gnostic Christianity, and High Magick. Much of that is pretty close to what you're describing, although there are some differences. I'm hardly an expert in the Gnostic stuff, but I know most of the other stuff pretty well, if you get hung up on something feel free to ask.

I'm with you on not knowing much about Gnostic Christianity. I've never really spent the time to research it and look things up on it. I've had other interests that have taken my time.

Kabbalah is something I really need to study I just don't know where to begin. I know that its influenced many different styles and systems of magic and is its own system of magic in its own right as well. I've found that there are Kabbalic influences in the Feri tradition to a degree including names for the three souls. So its something I need an idea of where to start with. Thoughts?

[random417]

Depends loona, for a scholarly approach, I'll recommend a classic "Garden of Pomegranates" by Israel Regardie. For something with exercises and practical stuff "Modern Magick" by Kraig is great. A more light hearted look would be "the chicken kabbalah" by lon duquette, which is the one I suggest if you can't decide.

[RoseRed92]

Treef0lk,
The point of the original post was not to meld Wicca with Christianity. The original post actually states that the Bible is against witchcraft (as your examples very eloquently reiterated). The post is made up of items that helped soothe me as I made the transition from Christianity to Wicca, such as the idea that the Trinity could be seen as pagan--or that Christian rituals like the ritual of baptism, are no less magical than a Skyclad prance. It was my intention to help others who may need support in their endeavors to convert. I am not interested in melding two religions that weren't meant to blend; I just want to give others that little nudge that I could have used a month or so ago.

I do appreciate the post though; very good read.

[treef0lk]

RoseRed92,

I should clarify the reason as to why I outlined my response the way I did, because it was in response to referencing the Christian trinity as Pagan, their practices as magical, and saying God is everywhere.

In religious reasoning, people outside of a religion do not define the working tenets of a religion as anything within a religious context; in other words, people outside of a religion analyzing and researching a religious doctrine, or are no longer a part of a religion after having declared oneself as being a member of another are limited by the boundaries of the differences between religious views. So, many Christians would disagree with the idea that the Christian trinity is Pagan; I would say it is not, because Christianity is not Pagan, nor does it identify itself as Pagan, and has made it clear that they are not Pagan. So for someone outside of their religion to call it Pagan, especially something that would be insulting to them, is like a Christian calling Paganism evil, or calling Wiccans Satan-worshippers. To them, that's true, but to us, it isn't. The Christian trinity is the Christian trinity, and it is Christian. Now it might have some things in common with other practices and it might have even, structurally, come from a previous religious system, but their identity as Christians is unique to them and their related religions.

The same goes with calling what they do magic, because of the structure of their religion, their stances against magic, and the particular verses of their religious texts that forbid its practice and use. There were other societies where all those things, such as prayer, spell-casting, ritual-working, specifying intention, and all the things that are typically considered magical, and consider that they have taken these concepts and these ideas and formed their own religious system where they address it differently and give these concepts a different authority. Calling it magic gives no credence to their identity as separate from Paganism.

The same goes for defining the word God as being everywhere. Now, understandably in this sense trying to understand what they believe God to be for the sake of understanding their religion is one thing, but to take a belief from their religion, such as, God is everywhere, is to define another concept of their religion which may not be compatible to their views--technically they are panentheist, which is contrary to the belief that God is everywhere, because the word God has implications in its use. In Wicca we have The God, instead of simply God. The deeper subject of the use of the word God is for another post, but the point I'm trying to make is there are specific aspects to the differentiation of Paganism from Christianity, it is important because not all religions are Pagan and not all religious views are compatible with Paganism, but when specifically referencing Christianity, a Pagan calling Christian concepts Pagan is to make the mistake that they've made in labeling us with their religious and spiritual terms.

Keeping in mind your admitted residual indoctrination, I'd simply like to ensure that the assistance you're providing to others who are entering this side of spirituality are helped along in reducing indoctrination by pointing these things out to you. It might not be easy to see otherwise.