The Elements - What Are They To You?

[Elem]

In order to further develop my own theories and beliefs, I'd just like to ask everyone a question.

How is it that you, personally, view The Elements?

i.e. Do you see them simply as discreet energies that we can call upon, set apart from the Universal energy that surrounds us? Or perhaps you see them to be one and the same as the Universal energy? You might even have no place for them in your beliefs, and therefore have no need to acknowledge them?

I always find the responses interesting, and as I've said, it often helps me to develop my own beliefs through discovering the viewpoints of others.

I hope to hear from you all soon .

Elem

[[LunaRose]]

I work with the elements all the time actually. I see them as being energized and enlivened by the Goddess. I also view them as spirit with physical manifestations of themselves. They exist within us and everyting else. I do see them as separate from the Guardians and elementals however, but I know that some schools of thought see them all as being the same thing.

When appropriate for me, I can call on the elements alone without calling on the Goddess, and I usually do so whenever I am meditating and working on healing myself or aura. I'm interested to hear how everyone else views the elements too.

[Elem]

Thank you for your reply, LunaRose . It's nice to see someone else interested in The Elements.

I also view them as spirit with physical manifestations of themselves

Can you perhaps extend on this? I think I understand what you're trying to say, but I'm not too clear.

Elem

[[LunaRose]]

Oh I am absolutely interested in the Elements. I see them as having both a spiritual and physical makeup, just as we do. I honor the essence of Earth, Air, Water, and Fire, just as I honor them in the physical. Just as we have souls, I believe the same of the Elements and that is what I pray to or work with in ritual. ( Come to think of it, I work with both. Hope this helps elaborate some...

[Fox Flame*]

Since I'm Hellenic, I'm exploring the elements as primordial Titans.

[Elem]

LunaRose - Interesting . What physical forms do you see them as taking, then? Naturally, I would assume you see them literally as their namesakes, but of course.. I could be proven wrong?

I, personally, believe that the energy of The Elements is already a 'physical' energy, that exists simply beyond what we can see. A kind of.. 'invisible' energy, that can still have physical effect on particles.

Therefore, I don't believe they have any kind of physical representation - i.e. The energy of Fire is not directly related to something burning, in the same way the energy of Water is not simply found in a pool of water.

Fox Flame - I don't know much about the Hellenic path, or how The Elements could be portrayed as primordial gods (i.e. Titans). Could you expand perhaps? I'm intrigued

Elem

[Fox Flame*]

Hellenic Paganism is the worship of the Gods of the Greek pantheon.

Primordial Titans manifest as raw, physical bodies. Their philosophy of elements differ from the usual earth, fire, air, water construct (at least mythologically). Oceanus is the Water, while Gaia is the Earth. Prometheus blessed humans with the gift of use of fire, which was orginally the divine spark reserved for the Gods.

I'm just starting to explore these elements this way, so please excuse the short answer

[[LunaRose]]

Therefore, I don't believe they have any kind of physical representation - i.e. The energy of Fire is not directly related to something burning, in the same way the energy of Water is not simply found in a pool of water.


Elem

Well, I believe in definate physical andspiritual counterparts. As I said before, just as I am a physical bod, but I have a soul, I do believe that the elements have both physical and spiritual parts. For me, the ocean is the physical part of Water Element manifesting itself. Fire, the flame of my candle, Earth, the entire earth, soil, sand, and Air, the air that I breath and wind, wind storms. etc. When I work with the Elements in prayer and rituals, I work with their spiritual beings, and sometimes, I use a physical representation to help guide me along. This is how I've always worked with them. I think you work with the Elements in extreamely fascinating ways. I am sorry to make you explain more, but I really want to know where you learned all this. Some people just KNOW to do things their way and it works for them. Is this your case?


I don't know much about Hellenic Paganism either, but thank you Fox Flame. This is very interesting. Do you find this much like the Watchers?

[Elem]

It's not so much that I just knew to do it, more that what I know is what I have learnt through careful experimentation and extensive research over several years.

I mean.. I've not been to one specific website, and just learned everything that I know.. Or talked to one specific person. I've been on hundreds of websites, many forums, in chatrooms, had private chats with people and conducted research of my own throughout.

It is for those reasons that I have come to the theory I practice and believe in today.. Although it's still constantly evolving as new pieces of information come to light that simply cannot be ignored .

For me, The Elements are both physical and spiritual, at the same time.. Their physical representation is their spiritual energy.. But you could also say that their spiritual energy is their physical state .

I don't believe that physical and spiritual should be separated, and are in fact entirely indistinguishable. The energy that flows all around us, that we all use in our 'magickal' workings and in our every day lives is a physical energy..

Being that I'm very interested in science and how the world works, I sought to find a way in which 'spiritual happenings' can be described in a scientific, and physical way. I've played with many theories over the years, none of which were satisfactory and could describe everything they needed to, but I have finally settled upon one.

I believe that the energy we use, the energy we call 'The Elements', is the fundamental energy of magick. It is not some ethereal 'spiritual' energy, beyond our realm. It is simply an energy which exists in our realm, our Universe, that we cannot actually see.. But that doesn't mean it isn't there . What we can see is its effects.

It is this energy that causes everything in magick, and is its very essence. We exert our will, our concious (or sub-concious) thoughts onto this energy - Thus altering its flow. Through changing the flow of this energy, we are able to bring about a result.

This is because this is a physical energy, which has a physical effect on the particles that we are physically aware of (i.e. atoms). It is only a small effect, but that is all that is needed. Pushing a single atom could eventually cause the outcome we seek, as in accordance with 'Chaos Theory'.

This, of course, does not explain how and why we tend to perceive The Elements as separate energies. Fire is entirely different to Water, as Air is different to Earth. I believe this can be explained if you consider the energy to have.. different 'wavelengths', or 'energy levels' - Consider it to be like the electromagnetic spectrum.

At the bottom, you would have an energy that is very calm - It has little energy. This is what we call 'Water'. It is at the bottom end of the spectrum.

At the top, you have a very energetic energy, brimming with passion and power. This is what we call 'Fire'.

In-between you have Earth, then Air. However, in much the same way you get (for instance) Red blending into Orange in the electromagnetic spectrum, I believe you get the Elemental energies overlapping and blending too.

This is why you are able to find some Elemental energies that can appear to have the properties of more than one Element..

Sorry - Got a bit side-tracked there. Back to replying to you

In your post, you suggest that the physical manifestation of spiritual 'Water' energy, is (for instance) the ocean. I suggest that the physical manifestation IS the spiritual energy of Water .

The name is simply for ease of reference, and as such, I believe has no tie to its physical form. The names of The Elements are actually all taken from an ancient scientific theory about 'what the world is made of'.. I think I wrote a post on it somewhere in The Elements board. (Edit: Link to post - http://everythingunderthemoon.net/forum ... 3407#23407)

Anyway, I think I'm starting to ramble.. If anyone wants me to continue, just say. I have, of course not yet explained about the Element of Spirit, how this theory accounts for souls, anything.. But I think I've rambled enough for now..

Any questions? I understand if all / some of that makes no sense at all. Apologies if so .

Elem

[Hera#76]

That is a very interesting and in-depth answer there. Started to get me more intrigued.

[Fox Flame*]

LunaRose:
They're kind of like Watchers, but I probably wouldn't call them like a Wiccan would.

Elem:
I like you're answer. I agree with you for the most part, except that I don't think the Elements have a heirarchy (like when you said water is calm, and fire is passionate. Water can be rather powerful, and shows us through natural disasters like monsoons.

Also, when you said that the Elements are a fundamental energy in magic, did you mean that you need to utilize the elements to perform spells? Because I don't use elements in all my spells, just the ones who need more energy that I can provide.

[Elem]

Fox Flame:

...except that I don't think the Elements have a heirarchy (like when you said water is calm, and fire is passionate. Water can be rather powerful, and shows us through natural disasters like monsoons.

Sorry, I didn't explain very clearly .

I do not mean that Water is less.. 'powerful' than Fire, simply that it is a different component of the same energy.. Much in the same way that the colour Red has a different wavelength to that of Blue, but is still part of the same spectrum.

Each Element should be seen as a.. 'wavelength', if you will, on the spectrum of energy that is around us. Water has a wider wavelength and Fire has a shorter wavelength.. But the energy that this wavelength contains - Its amplitude - Should be considered to be the same.

Of course, you can increase the amplitude of the energy of Water, making it more energtic.. In the same way you can decrease the amplitude of Fire, making it less energetic.

Sorry if that sounds complicated at all..

Also, when you said that the Elements are a fundamental energy in magic, did you mean that you need to utilize the elements to perform spells? Because I don't use elements in all my spells, just the ones who need more energy that I can provide.

By saying this, I mean that they are the energy that controls all magic. When you cast a spell, your mind works its will on this energy, irregardless of what you 'call upon' or 'use' in the spell. Essentially - Whether you call upon The Elements or not in your spells and workings, it is The Elements (the energy that exists all around us) that make the spell 'work'.

Try not to think of this universal energy in the common sense of The Elements. I understand that in many workings, The Elements are typically considered to be energies or presences you can call upon in workings, if you want, but don't have to.. I, however, am referring to The Elements as the universal and fundamental energy that controls and underpins everything that is 'magick'.

Hope that helps answer your questions.

Elem

[Fox Flame*]

I get the part about wavelengths.

We just call this "energy" different names. You call it the Elements, while I call it, well, energy.

Thanks for clearing that stuff up.

[Elem]

Quite alright .

Elem

[[LunaRose]]

It's not so much that I just knew to do it, more that what I know is what I have learnt through careful experimentation and extensive research over several years.

I mean.. I've not been to one specific website, and just learned everything that I know.. Or talked to one specific person. I've been on hundreds of websites, many forums, in chatrooms, had private chats with people and conducted research of my own throughout.

It is for those reasons that I have come to the theory I practice and believe in today.. Although it's still constantly evolving as new pieces of information come to light that simply cannot be ignored .

I completely understand you there. I think we are always learning new things and constantly refining thoughts and ideas that we currently hold as truth.

In your post, you suggest that the physical manifestation of spiritual 'Water' energy, is (for instance) the ocean. I suggest that the physical manifestation IS the spiritual energy of Water .

I may be getting cheesy, but this is beautiful. My eyes got a little misty there. I totally love the way you descirbe your belief system and I really enjoyed reading your post. I understand what you are explaining here so far though. Thank you very much.

They're kind of like Watchers, but I probably wouldn't call them like a Wiccan would.

Thank you for explaining this concept. I find all of this extreamely fascinating