What is Forgiveness?

[Loika]

Today I got guidance from The Four Agreements:

He states that "Forgiveness is the only way to heal." then he goes on to explain

Quote :
You will know you have forgiven someone when you see them and you no loger have an emotional reaction.. You will hear the name of the person and you will have no emotional reaction. When someone can touch what used to be a wound and it no longer hurts you, then you have truly forgiven.

Hmmm.. I'm not sure that I totally agree with this. I think I would amend this to say that you would no longer have a 'negative' emotional reaction when an old wound is touched. It seems to me that, for me, the key to forgiveness would be to find something to be grateful for within the situation. And if I've found something to be grateful for, I'm not going to have 'no emotional reaction'... I'm going to have a rather positive reaction when the old wound is touched.

[Esaru Kun]

I think that the above statement descibes indifference more than forgiveness, I think indifference is kinda bad as if a reaction cant be provoked it means, IMO, that you no longer care about whatever happened.

[Herzen]

I'm not sure forgiveness is about having no emotional reaction when something happen in relation to the person you're trying to forgive. I would say that forgiveness is still being hurt by what happened, but accept it and try to move on WITH the one who hurt you.

But I suppose we all share forgiveness in a different way.

[Vesca]

By that definition, I've never forgiven anyone. Though I'm pretty sure I've moved on and am no longer upset by the some of the wrongs I've endured in the past.

[Xiao Rong]

[renamed thread to be a little more descriptive of the content]

I don't think that forgiveness necessarily means moving on with the person who hurt you. I have been thinking about this quite a lot myself recently, having come to see a lot of the horrible things people in my family have done to one another (some really serious abuse and even criminal activity). Frankly, I feel that most of them are "unforgivable" in the sense that I can never see them the same way again and I no longer wish to have anything to do with them, especially since they've never expressed any remorse or desire to change, suffered any consequences for what they did, or even apologized. If they never saw what they did was wrong, then they don't deserve to be forgiven -- they don't deserve my reconciliation, and I don't owe them my time or my affection. If I were to forgive them, then that would in effect be telling them that what they did was okay, when it wasn't.

On the other hand, my therapist told me that forgiveness is simply a matter of getting enough distance from a harmful or dangerous person, and then being able to put things in perspective. Not to diminish it, but to have perspective on it, and to be able to accept that it happened. Not reconciliation, not saying it was okay, but a matter of personal healing, and to not feel the same anger and hurt quite so acutely. That's the kind of forgiveness that I can get behind, although she was careful to say that this process can only begin once you're in a safe place and no longer being actively hurt.

[Herzen]

Thank you for sharing your way of seeing things Xiao.

I admit it's quite difficult for me to understand what forgiveness is over the theoretical aspect way because I don't think I've ever forgiven anyone. When people hurt or disappoint me, I simply wipe them out of my life.

[Vesca]

This definition of Forgiveness reminds me of the Greek tales of The Furies, 3 goddesses or murdered women one could summon to take revenge on murderers. They would hunt down these men or women to the ends of the earth driving them mad into eternity then torturing their souls in the underworld, the only way they could be stopped or called off from their query was by forgiving the wrong doer with your full heart.

That story in mind is why I waste no energy on hating someone or holding grudges. I forgive those who have done wrong to me because I don't wish to have that stain on my heart for eternity.

I really like this answer. It's something to ponder over.

Also, good to see you floating about again. I feel like I haven't seen you in weeks.

[Seraphin]

I experienced severe and sustained trauma when I was a child I developed many sustained physical responses. The situation left me with very little positive self-esteem, I had anxiety attacks, and certain people and situations would trigger a physical response over which I had no control. It took longer for my body to stop responding to certain situations that were reminiscent of the trauma than it took me to emotionally accept what had happened and forgive the perpetrator. I did eventually learn how to re-train my body to respond less severely, and the wounds are healed -- but not without scars.

I don't view any of this as unnecessary or even unfortunate; it's simply how life played out for me, and as these things shaped who I am today - and because I love me - I'm grateful for the experience. It was a kind of 'trial by fire', and I value what I've learned from it. I certainly don't look back at any of it with fondness, but I also don't look back with any sense of loss, regret, anger or sadness, and I no longer live with the fears associated with the experience.

It took YEARS for me to get to this place of acceptance, and although forgiveness was only a part of the healing process, it was an important part. I don't look back at the situation with indifference at all; I don't have negative feelings toward any of it, but it was such a huge part of my own personal development that there's no way I could possibly be indifferent - without emotion - toward that part of my history.

[Loika]

Not long along I felt that someone had become 'indifferent'... they'd shut their emotions down so much that it seemed pointless to continue talking to them. They claimed that, in order to talk to me they had to be in that frame of mind... but for me.. if you have to feel NOTHING in order to talk to me, then it is best not to talk to me at all. I don't need an 'emotionless' friend... friends feel for and with us. They are not devoid of emotion when conversing with us.

Never mind that if we're blocking all feelings, we're not just shutting out the 'bad' stuff... but in that state the good stuff is blocked too. That means our capacity to love is just as hindered as our capacity to be angry and what good does that do us???

[ness]

I thought about this long and hard. For me, forgiveness means taking control of your healing process.

Let's say person A does something wrong to me which has caused me hurt and pain. When this happens at a small level, my reaction is "I would feel better if this person apologized/acknowledged/accepted/expressed". I give control of my healing process in third person's hand and wait for some action on their end to feel healed. If I can take control of my healing, I consider it forgiveness... I no longer wait for anyone outside me to make me feel better. When I get there, I feel a sense of calmness around said person. It does not always work, but I try.

[HopefulChild]

I'm still working on this concept.

I still feel the slights, the wounds, the betrayals...I have been told many times that I need to learn forgiveness...and to stop living in fear.

I still don't know where to start with either of those endeavors. I know I can change..because I have changed.

I've written letters, had conversations, and dozens of steps to forgive and begin forgiving...Nothing feels different though.
If I dwell on any of them I'll get angry, I'll feel hurt. I'll do the roller coaster that happens anytime I lose my temper and then go on the guilt and shame spiral for feeling angry in first place.

And to be clear, "losing my temper" results in me raising my voice above the level of Joking/Conversational. I was taught that only a person with absolute authority has any right to feel anger. So in the last 2 years I've learned that I can be angry, and express it, without being a monster. I still go through the guilt and shame spiral though. Still working on that.

[Xiao Rong]

This is an interesting topic to revisit ... since my last post several months ago, I feel like I have processed a lot more of my feelings and anger. I was REALLY angry for a while, and all about letting it all out after having repressed it so long. And it was really helpful for a while, because it kept me from going back into a bad situation and reminding me why I left in the first place. It felt good to be angry, a way to honor the fact that I had been harmed and spurring me into taking action to keep myself safe.

But recently it has started to feel counterproductive, like ... I'm out of there now, there's nothing further to do to keep myself safe, really. And just fanning the flames of my anger has felt like a waste of energy, so I've just let if fizzle out. Now all that's left is accepting that cutting the abusers out of my life is my new normal, and there's nothing more to do than just carrying on with my life. So I still have no desire for reconciliation, and I still recognize the injustice of the situation ... but it just doesn't make me angry anymore. Maybe a little sad, but I just gotta keep going.

Over New Years, I had the opportunity to participate in an open ritual, where the High Priestess asked us to think of something to let go of ... she warned us that we had to be really prepared to let it go for the rest of our lives. And in turn we would invite something new -- really take it all in. I knew instinctively that it had to be all of this anger and hatred towards my father, and that the replacement was self-love. It was really powerful and moving, and I'm so very glad I did it. Sometimes the sadness and the anger still comes up, but it's like in meditation, where you gently move your thoughts back to what you are focusing on. Like they say, the best way to break a habit is to replace it with a new one.

That's the best I've got for forgiveness, so far.

[Firebird]

I've had this tab open for a long time ....considering my response.
I have been angry my whole life it would seem, a lot of trauma, hurts, slights and downright violence. It becomes cumulative. In order to protect myself anger seemed the best sheild. I was righteous. ..you hurt me and you would not hear the end of it.
Anger hasn't gotten me far except to warn me of danger.
I looked at the Four Agreements which are the basis for the book by Don Miguel Ruiz that the Op Loika was refering to....

1.".Be Impeccable With Your Word. Speak with integrity. Say only what you mean. Avoid using the word to speak against yourself or to gossip about others. Use the power of your word in the direction of truth and love..."
2."Don't Make Assumptions. Find the courage to ask questions and to express what you really want. Communicate with others as clearly as you can to avoid misunderstandings, sadness and drama. With just this one agreement, you can completely transform your life..."
3."Don't Take Anything Personally. Nothing others do is because of you. What others say and do is a projection of their own reality, their own dream. When you are immune to the opinions and actions of others, you won't be the victim of needless suffering..."
4."Always Do Your Best. Your best is going to change from moment to moment; it will be different when you are healthy as opposed to sick. Under any circumstance, simply do your best, and you will avoid self-judgment, self-abuse and regret.

(source wikipedia)

Really sound advise.
What I have discovered in my healing process was to forgive myself. It takes a great deal of effort to hold grudges, recently I have discovered that a grudge wasn't just against the person who did me wrong but also with and within myself. I was hateful to myself for letting it eat me up. If I could accept that I was doing the best I could at the time and therby relive myself of the burden of hate, then replace that with a loving self acceptance, the anger began to melt away and to my surprise forgiveness filled the space.
Like Xiao's ritual, you can let go and let go and let go but the void must be filled or it will creep back. For her filling the space with self-love promoted swifter healing.
It takes time and patience. Retraing the brain to be kind to ones self after years of the opposite is a task in and of itself, and one that we as witches can approach with a magical view.
The first agreement reminds me of a topic we had at camp one year, "your word is your wand" If your spewing hatred or talking someone down or in any other way being less than positive then that is what will be returned to you. Whether you believe in a 3 fold law or not, science shows that like attracts like. Think about what you put out there in the first place.
The second one is hard also, many of us are sensitive but we are wrong frequently. If we presume we know the guy who cut us off on the road is just an ass hole, we are shutting ourself off to truth. Perhaps he just found out his mother is in the hospital. Course that's no ecxcuse for driving crazy, but as intuitive as we are we do not know what is going on when we make a judgement.
Third agreement, well yea, if we presume the guy cut us off because he didn't like the way we looked, we are inflating our own ego, the guy doesn't even know you. (Not saying road rage doesn't happen, if that's the case remove yourself from the scene)
Fourth agreement would be a self check. Am I doing my best? If not write down steps you would like to see change in yourself, and continue to radiate out your best so that it may return to you. Most of all do not judge yourself. If you were not doing your best, consider the circumstances...were you between a rock and a hard space?, let it go and fill it with self acceptance. Tomorrow will be a better self.

Bb, Firebird

[SpiritTalker]

We can't cast without getting some of it on us, nor can we bless without getting it on us. Maybe when we can bless ourselves for letting ourselves be hoodwinked by our self righteousness, we get that on us and heal. Just sayin...