Over Genderization in Wicca?

Lesbian, gay, bi-sexual, and transgender discussion and questions.
astrowitch
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Over Genderization in Wicca?

Post by astrowitch »

I was researching some Beltane rituals, and I came across one that changed the ritual at the end depending on whether or not you are "man" or "woman".

I put those words in quotes because of my standpoint. I am gender-nonbinary, genderfluid more specifically, and I know many transgender and gender-nonbinary wiccans. What defines what a man or woman is? According to this ritual, it was what sex you have. But then that also brings up cases of intersex people (people born with characteristics of both reproductive systems).

I do understand that wicca focuses on a balance of the feminine and masculine of the Divine, but what about when it comes to the practitioners? When someone is transgender or nonbinary and rituals like these call for such gendered rituals what do they do? :evilwitch: Its always been something that's bothered me.

Any thoughts or ideas?
Allthepacas
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Re: Over Genderization in Wicca?

Post by Allthepacas »

I have always thought of gender in Wicca being personality traits rather than physical distinctions, whenever I come across a spell that says only a woman can preform it for one reasons or another, I just let my feminine side become more prominent.
Don't think of male or female when it comes to Wicca, think of feminine and masculine.
Vesca
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Re: Over Genderization in Wicca?

Post by Vesca »

Can I ask what book or resource you're getting this information from? Depending on how old it is, it could simply not be up to date with our current understanding of gender identity. That's my first guess anyway. :)
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Xiao Rong
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Re: Over Genderization in Wicca?

Post by Xiao Rong »

A lot of Wicca is indeed very centered around gender stereotypes and roles, particularly around heterosexual intercourse (e.g. blade + chalice, the Great Rite). And unfortunately some areas of Pagans don't have the best track record of being inclusive of some identities like trans* women.

Wicca, in particular, happens to play more into gender roles, but there are other traditions of Paganism that are much better about celebrating other gender identities and sexual orientations. There are some covens you can find on Witchvox, for instance, that are for gay men and celebrate the male mysteries. I know some people find polytheism very liberating for celebrating different orientations and genders, venerating genderqueer deities such as Hermaphrodite or Loki.

I wrote about this in another thread as well:
My problem with that is that it places too strong a focus on specifically heterosexual intercourse as the only divine method of creation, and it erases the experiences of people who are not heterosexual and do not fit into the gender binary.

[in my witchcraft, I believe that ... ]

1) Every one of us has the capacity to embody all possibilities of humanity, regardless of gender identity. Strong, weak, independent, dependent, nurturing, distant, kind, mean, smart, stupid, selfish, altruistic, introverted, extroverted, loving, hateful, emotional, logical -- we have all been these things at one time or another. I identify as a woman, but since I am inherently capable of all of these things, I don't intrinsically need a man, specifically, to "balance me out". My partner and I each bring a different subset of strengths, weaknesses, hobbies, interests, needs, and gifts to our relationship, but they are not limited or defined by our gender. As I talk about in my post about Goddess feminism, I am interested in breaking down dualisms entirely, not recreating them.

2) So in my Goddess symbolism, I try to use a set of symbols that demonstrate the many ways in which creation can happen aside from heterosexual union, which, while important, is certainly not the only one. So I like to employ metaphors such as weaving, throwing a pot, etc. in my practice that are accessible by people of either gender. In the Charge of the Goddess, there's a line that says, "All acts of love and joy are My rituals", and I see that as an affirmation of any kind of consensual union (between people of any gender) as sacred.

You're also not the only one who has ever wondered about this subject. Here are a few links that I'd recommend:

One Gay Man's Response to Gender Essentialism in Paganism

Gender Essentialism is a Problem, Pagans

G is for Gender Essentialism

Oh, My Pop Culture Goddess: Transgender Issues in Wicca and Paganism

H is for Heterosexism and Heteronormativity

Philadelphia Pagan: Regarding Sexual Orientation and Identity in Wicca

Pagan Spiritual Paths and Men Who Love Men
~ Xiao Rong ~ 小蓉 ~ Little Lotus ~
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smogie_michele
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Re: Over Genderization in Wicca?

Post by smogie_michele »

I always thought of the gender aspect of wicca as a way to represent a kind of metaphoric ying and yang- that we all are made of of some aspect of masculine and feminine. I agree with allthepacas, if there were to be a ritual that were to be preformed by someone who identifies as male, I would simply channel my masculine side.

This post did bring up an interesting topic that never really crossed my mind before. Thank you Xiao for reposting these links, I look forward to reading them.
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Sakura Blossom
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Re: Over Genderization in Wicca?

Post by Sakura Blossom »

I talked to my friend who is gender fluid and also the treasure for our college's LGBTQ* group on campus as well as the new PRIDE Intern, and this is what she had to say:
If they are non-binary strictly I would say whichever feels better for them to use, whether that be the male or female variations. Same for gender fluid and gender neutral. Myself being gender fluid in where I go from more masculine, feminine, androgynous, or neither, it would vary depending on the day, my mood, temperament, and my mental gender that day. (little weird to explain that one) Again, it really depends on what makes them feel more comfortable on that particular day. If it truly is a gender specific ritual, which forces that person into the binary box I'm not 100% sure, only because that could make them really uncomfortable/unsafe within their beliefs and practices.
And I have to say, that despite not experiencing this for myself, I agree fully. Wicca and Paganism in general, is all about doing what feels right to you. If you feel a ritual is something you'd like to do but don't like how gender specific it is - change it into your own thing if you'd like or you could follow the parts that speak best to you that day as she explained.

Everyone else has shared some really amazing points on this too. ^_^
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astrowitch
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Re: Over Genderization in Wicca?

Post by astrowitch »

I appreciate everyone's input on this! Its very interesting to see everyone's viewpoints and quite encouraging to see such support for people like me (especially since I'm a teen who's recently come out).

The ritual I found does not say when it was posted sadly.

Again, thank you all for adding your input! Its all very enlightening!
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breaddd
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Re: Over Genderization in Wicca?

Post by breaddd »

It's always bothered me as well to be honest. I'm not Wiccan, but there's so much Wicca stuff whenever you search for witchcraft. I always find the emphasis on gender problematic, but since I don't focus on the balance of male and female (the binaryyy! It burrnnss!) I just ignore most of the emphasis on gender. A lot of the time I just skip over spells and rituals that involve the binary and gender emphasis.
When in doubt, consult the nearest tree.
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HopefulChild
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Re: Over Genderization in Wicca?

Post by HopefulChild »

I would just apply information like that as an individual who is working in which ever aspect of the divine at the time.
That Masculine or the Feminine. It doesn't matter which sex organs you are sporting because every human is a combination of the aspects of Masculine and Feminine, and the seasons and the elements and the phases of the moon and the planets and stardust and jazz and ....what were we talking about?
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moonlitwish
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Re: Over Genderization in Wicca?

Post by moonlitwish »

I'm all girl (long hair, makeup, high heels style) so I don't have the same predicament as you, but the gender binary doesn't fly with me. Basically, I ignore the "rules" if a ritual resonates with me and make it my own. If I don't feel a deep connection, I simply don't do it. I guess if you are a group practitioner in a specific tradition you may not have that option, but then there's more than 1 reason I practice alone. [FACE WITH STUCK-OUT TONGUE AND TIGHTLY-CLOSED EYES]


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T'a Nuk
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Re: Over Genderization in Wicca?

Post by T'a Nuk »

Nice! HopefulChild is right, but so are you. Instinct and spirit play the biggest part here. Gender, whether implied or specified is usually a point of context, a jump off so to speak. Growth is accomplished through practicing and exploring the 'edge' of our knowledge. You can't dance if you don't dig the beat. Follow your heart.
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Oura Simone
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Re: Over Genderization in Wicca?

Post by Oura Simone »

I'm currently reading an introduction to Wicca, and yeah, the gender stuff is bothering me. I'll definitely have to so some handpicking and rejecting here. But then again, the book itself seems to encourage that, so...
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Lord_of_Nightmares
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Re: Over Genderization in Wicca?

Post by Lord_of_Nightmares »

Wicca can be a tad heteronormative but it emphasizes fertility, so this is why.

However, there are trad Wiccans, primarily Gardnerian, who are inclusive towards everyone. I am part of a group that is. They accept trans, gay, and so forth. Doreen Valiente herself was super lbgt friendly in her writings.

So yes inclusive Wicca does exist.

http://www.inclusivewicca.org/?m=1
I am the Earth, The Sun and the Stars
And I am the also the Moon
I am all animal and birds,
And I am the outcast as well, and the thief
I am the low person of dreadful deeds,
And the great person of excellent deeds
I am Female. I am Male and I am Neuter.
- Devi
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Oura Simone
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Re: Over Genderization in Wicca?

Post by Oura Simone »

^ Thanks, that's good to know!

It's just that as a queer person, the constant man-woman-balance thing doesn't seem so close to my lived experience. I mean, I can see how it may be super-relevant for straight folks...

So far, it's not so much that I feel actively discriminated against, but more that some theories seem to be written from a perspective that may not be particularly relevant to me personally.

I'm not saying gender doesn't matter. I feel it matters a great deal. But I think I might need a different take on it than "man-woman-balance".

But while I'm currently researching Wicca, I'm not even sure yet whether I'm into it or maybe prefer another form of witchcraft, so...
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Re: Over Genderization in Wicca?

Post by Lord_of_Nightmares »

Wicca is an orthopraxic religion; right practice. So, some people's beliefs of it may not be accurate for yourself. I don't believe exactly the same as every Wiccan I've ever met either.
I am the Earth, The Sun and the Stars
And I am the also the Moon
I am all animal and birds,
And I am the outcast as well, and the thief
I am the low person of dreadful deeds,
And the great person of excellent deeds
I am Female. I am Male and I am Neuter.
- Devi
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