"Get Off My Lawn!": Generational Differences in Wicca

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HopefulChild
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"Get Off My Lawn!": Generational Differences in Wicca

Post by HopefulChild »

[Xiao Rong: These posts were previously under a different thread in the Wicca 101 forum, but I've moved them because they have strayed quite far from the original topic and no longer fit the Witchcraft 101's teaching mission]

So then how has it gotten too "fluffy"?

Any discussion of root is interesting to me, just as much from the perspective of how something has moved away from it's root.
Since I'm still in the research and development stage of how I live and integrate my faith, I don't have an opinion on how or if Wicca has changed or moved away from it's root.

Any opinions?
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Re: The Real Meaning of Wicca

Post by Imperious »

HopefulChild wrote:So then how has it gotten too "fluffy"?
I'd suggest it's a mixture of modern popular "culture", and a desire to be accepted.

We know, for example, that interest in Witchcraft ballooned after The Craft was released in 1996, and Buffy the Vampire Slayer became immensely popular after its release in 1997. The material was presented (particularly in the case of The Craft) in a sensationalized form, but was still a decent mirror of modern Witchcraft and, so, brought in a dramatic number of youngsters who'd have otherwise never considered the material.

The problem with lots of youngsters coming in, of course, is obvious; they're new to Witchcraft, don't necessarily understand it, and were part of the Internet generation that spreads ideas quickly, if inaccurately. It's no coincidence that Firebird mentions Silver Ravenwolf, an author that published nothing prior to the release of The Craft, and one of a great many authors who've churned out books to meet the needs of this new generation.

In a generational sense, we could argue that Wicca has simply moved into its second phase - most of modern popular culture is marketed, facsimile rubbish that's intended to distract rather than educate. It's perhaps little surprise that the current generation of witches closely resembles that primer, thanks to the dubious quality of work it's subjected to.

How to solve that problem... Well, that's a deeper conundrum. Many don't believe that it's a problem to be solved.
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Re: The Real Meaning of Wicca

Post by HopefulChild »

That is a very reasoned outlook.
Any dilution of principles augmented by a much wider audience is magnified even more.

Pouring dish soap into the soup so that when you choose to spill it, it reaches all the corners. That really is a horrible concept.

One of the things I have actually found most frustrating and I know this is going to sound crazy, is the insistence by so many people that "if it feels right to you, then you are doing the right thing, as long as you do no harm"...
At some point that concept is just a recipe for people going off the rails. Literally, hedonism via modest concern. How difficult is it for people to make short term justifications for their actions already.

I'm not opposed to hedonism mind you. I know that there are people who live in that model and do so without doing harm. I also know that those people are exceptional and they take great pains and plan out long term so that the way they operate has minimal impact on others in a negative way.

Something I have yet to hear from another pagan is, "No, I think you are wrong in that...what you just said is batsh*t crazy"..
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Re: The Real Meaning of Wicca

Post by theharmoniouscrow »

HopefulChild wrote:
One of the things I have actually found most frustrating and I know this is going to sound crazy, is the insistence by so many people that "if it feels right to you, then you are doing the right thing, as long as you do no harm"...
At some point that concept is just a recipe for people going off the rails.
Something I have yet to hear from another pagan is, "No, I think you are wrong in that...what you just said is batsh*t crazy"..
I had a little giggle at that comment, and I agree with the rest of it too - I've often wondered why we don't hear more of that. I think some of it also stems from the current obsession with (not sure if that's the right word... WORRY might be the better word or even FEAR OF) being politically incorrect... You get many of this type of response: "Who are YOU to tell ME what's right and wrong on MY PATH!?" etc when you say something (I learned that) about reading "something about that" or things of that nature.

I'm very new to Paganism (the following of it, anyway) and all the things that it covers, so I've been sitting back and just reading and watching and researching and it's quite confusing sometimes with all the different takes on it and nobody willing to say "Well that's NOT actually how it's meant to be if you follow THIS part of it..." because everyone is too "scared" of upsetting someone. Which is fine - but as you said: the purity gets diluted for the "masses" to "mainstream" it. Which is sad. I mean each to their own, for sure - that's how I live - but if there ARE rules and things that "came with" the tenets of the Path one has chosen, then why not follow them as those who came before you did? I thought that was part of the tradition, one of the many reasons people started on these Paths.

I have, in my research and seeking, realised that I am NOT Wiccan. I am a Witch. :) I found this distinction quite important for some reason. Still pondering why that is, and I think that's a personal thing - but this thread has definitely been very informative.

I like the reasoned and logical and unemotional responses and the thought out discussions - one of the many reasons I love this forum. No drama.
Last edited by Vesca on Tue Sep 15, 2015 12:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Real Meaning of Wicca

Post by Imperious »

HopefulChild wrote:One of the things I have actually found most frustrating and I know this is going to sound crazy, is the insistence by so many people that "if it feels right to you, then you are doing the right thing, as long as you do no harm"...
At some point that concept is just a recipe for people going off the rails.
I’ve often argued that without some central tenets, a word or title (even in Neopaganism) becomes formless and meaningless. In another thread on this forum, I’m discussing the concept of what’s central to organised Wicca, and the reality that if someone falls outside of these central tenets, then they’re not Wiccan. The reason this isn’t generally considered popular, is because it’s exclusive; and deliberately so.

The problem is that there really isn’t a definitive source for the confusion.

I mentioned The Craft earlier, and so many people underestimate just how influential that movie was in its introduction of modern Witchcraft to a teenage audience. Unfortunately, existing Pagan groups didn’t take on or initiate minors and, in any event, weren’t even remotely prepared for the rush. In lieu of freely available material, or the guidance of experienced Wiccans, this new generation practically “made stuff up” in order to plug the gap. Authors like Ravenwolf wrote books specifically for this group of people (the lamentable Teen Wicca being one such example), but removed almost all of the religious trappings that accompany organised Wicca.

Instead, they presented magical cookbooks marketed toward youngsters already immersed in popular culture and, thus, were unlikely to take what they were doing seriously, or consider its deeper meaning. Largely, people were presented with spellcraft “how to” material without any of the appropriate considerations or beliefs.

It’s also interesting to note that this is roughly when the terms “Wicca” and “Witchcraft” started to get used interchangeably. Wicca, as a religion, is something you believe; Witchcraft, as an art, is something you do. This new generation of “pop-culture” Witchcraft effectively used the word Wicca to describe the practice of Witchcraft, and the community has gotten confused over it ever since.
HopefulChild wrote:Something I have yet to hear from another pagan is, "No, I think you are wrong in that...what you just said is batsh*t crazy"..
Unfortunately, communities want to increase their membership no matter what. For that reason, the horrible ostracism of disagreeing with something nonsensical is considered taboo. Many topics on these forums, which I happen to like, see me delete entire posts after the first proofread and simply walking away from the keyboard.

The explosion of interest in the mid-nineties, allied with a largely clueless Internet generation, has largely created forums where a lot of utter nonsense is promulgated.

As hinted earlier, I’m just not sure how this is countered. I’ve often thought that charismatic leadership is something the Neopagan community has consistently lacked, but even that needs a meaningful vehicle with which to spread information intelligently.

No such vehicle has so far made itself available.
theharmoniouscrow wrote:Which is fine - but as you said: the purity gets diluted for the "masses" to "mainstream" it.
In my opinion, Witchcraft does have a generational problem.

We know that in a capitalist society, the only thing that’s valued is the thing that’s profitable. Wicca, pre-nineties, was the opposite of profitable; the material was kept secret, groups excluded youngsters (for good reason) and its religious adherents were typically of a certain age; the average certainly being beyond mid-thirties. While this made material challenging to get a hold of, what you did get hold of was worth the effort.

Post-nineties Wicca is a very different animal. Society has robbed young people of their identities, and pop culture allows marketing to replace them. If Witchcraft is presented in a simple, anything goes format, then teenagers will eat it up; particularly if it’s apologetic enough to avoid annoying their parents.

The Pagan community has had a good couple of decades to sort this out, and there’s still no reconciliation in sight. There needs to be some kind of bridge between a group of older Wiccans who largely despise youngsters who they see as incapable of looking beyond their next spell, and a group of younger witches who don’t want to be told what to do by a bunch of old codgers that don’t understand them. Personally, I think this is exasperated by the fact that the vanguard of Gardner, Valiente (both deceased), Buckland or the Farrar’s (getting on in years) wasn’t replaced by a younger or more vibrant version of itself; it was replaced by authors the like of Ravenwolf, who weren’t interested in properly representing Wicca, if indeed they ever knew what it was in the first place.

To me, the generational problem can only be solved by a coven or individual that can reintegrate original practices meaningfully, but in a modern format that youngsters can relate to. It’d probably need to be a labour of love, purely by virtue of the fact that it wouldn’t be particularly profitable, and would take a large amount of time and effort.

I just don’t see it happening any time soon. Every time I see a witch or warlock on TV, or hear one on the radio, I want to take an axe to it. They're either saying something mind-numbingly stupid, or boring the arse off of anyone unfortunate enough to be listening to it.
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Re: The Real Meaning of Wicca

Post by theharmoniouscrow »

Imperious wrote: I’ve often argued that without some central tenets, a word or title (even in Neopaganism) becomes formless and meaningless. In another thread on this forum, I’m discussing the concept of what’s central to organised Wicca, and the reality that if someone falls outside of these central tenets, then they’re not Wiccan. The reason this isn’t generally considered popular, is because it’s exclusive; and deliberately so.
Oh my goodness, Imperious, I agreed with absolutely EVERYTHING you said! I wanted to quote it ALL , but the section above is the main thing that I did a "GAH! YES!" and a *fist shake* to when I read it..
I think "exclusion" is the issue: Young people these days feel everyone should be allowed to do EVERYTHING no MATTER WHAT and do it THEIR WAY (everyone is a winner, after all) This new generation has a very "entitled" feel to it and I don't mean in terms of wealth etc.. I mean in terms of having EVERYTHING handed to them in simple steps and you can't keep anything "secret" because that's NOT ALLOWED. There's also no EFFORT involved. "Do these 10 simple things and you are a WITCH!" type articles and books make my head spin. I know I'm so new to this that I shouldn't really spout on about it, but I'm "older" - I really am - and I've watched the new generation appropriate EVERYTHING simply because they WANT IT. They don't "need" it or feel any specific connection to it, but they WANT IT. It's like a generation of parents thought "let's just give them everything they want because that's easier than setting rules and boundaries because we don't want them to get MAD with us!" and then set them loose on the world. The internet doesn't help this either, as you said. People "make stuff up" and it gets spread around (usually in Top Ten lists!) and then that's the New Real.
I sound like a grumpy old lady and GET OFF MY LAWN... but I can see, now, why the previous generations felt they way they did. You watch things that you did, because they were the RULES, being taken apart and changed to "suit" the new. Slowly things just become nonsense, with no meaning behind them. No work, means no real understanding of WHY things are done... or WERE done, as the case may be, the way they were done by the ones who came before. Not just talking about Wicca/Paganism here.

And I think the reason Wicca gets a bad rap and gets called "fluffy" and "new agey" and "hippie sh*t" is because of these "fake" people who are just in it to make money from the latest fad. It's not all of them, but the "new" ones are definitely to be taken with a twitch and a tilt of the head and a squint of the eyes.
And when that interest fades, they will move on to the next. And so will the current generation who have not really learned about "continuity and tradition" because things last about 5 internet seconds in their world. Not their fault, either. That is the way of the internet and they are "plugged in" constantly.
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Re: The Real Meaning of Wicca

Post by Imperious »

I’m glad you enjoyed the post. :)

Ultimately, I think a certain amount of exclusivity is a good thing. Nothing given away freely is ever valued, either in mundane or magical terms. While I accept that a lot of youngsters coming to the Craft via pop culture are simply trying to make things work and are being misinformed, there are a lot of authors or “teachers” out there whose only intention is to exploit them. Exclusivity is simply a means of ensuring that the right people come to the Craft, and the right people are given the time and effort required to train and to produce.

I suppose, my view of exclusivity begins with my belief that the ability to successfully practice magic is entirely, completely and unquestionably hereditary. Imagine how that goes down with youngsters that are brought up to believe they can have or be anything.

There’s not a flicker of doubt in my mind that a great many talented witches and warlocks fought their way through the white noise of the Internet, and learned some amazing things that they chose to share. One of my favourite magical authors is Konstantinos, and he’s certainly in this mould. He’d published work prior to the mid-nineties, but his best material (his Nocturnal Witchcraft series) came in the early 2000’s and is absolutely fantastic.

Sadly, for every one Konstantinos, there are thousands upon thousands of individuals who pick up dud material, make some up on the spot, and start publishing it. My particular tradition, Malefic, requires each ritual to have a “cost”; something meaningful that you pay in order to gain success. This is a first-line delimiter to stop people from simply casting spells without considering the consequences, but fits terribly with the current fast-food generation that wants everything immediately, no questions asked.

How dare I want to protect what I’ve worked to learn over two decades!
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Re: The Real Meaning of Wicca

Post by theharmoniouscrow »

Imperious wrote:I’m glad you enjoyed the post. :)

Ultimately, I think a certain amount of exclusivity is a good thing. Nothing given away freely is ever valued, either in mundane or magical terms. While I accept that a lot of youngsters coming to the Craft via pop culture are simply trying to make things work and are being misinformed, there are a lot of authors or “teachers” out there whose only intention is to exploit them. Exclusivity is simply a means of ensuring that the right people come to the Craft, and the right people are given the time and effort required to train and to produce.

I suppose, my view of exclusivity begins with my belief that the ability to successfully practice magic is entirely, completely and unquestionably hereditary. Imagine how that goes down with youngsters that are brought up to believe they can have or be anything.

There’s not a flicker of doubt in my mind that a great many talented witches and warlocks fought their way through the white noise of the Internet, and learned some amazing things that they chose to share. One of my favourite magical authors is Konstantinos, and he’s certainly in this mould. He’d published work prior to the mid-nineties, but his best material (his Nocturnal Witchcraft series) came in the early 2000’s and is absolutely fantastic.

Sadly, for every one Konstantinos, there are thousands upon thousands of individuals who pick up dud material, make some up on the spot, and start publishing it. My particular tradition, Malefic, requires each ritual to have a “cost”; something meaningful that you pay in order to gain success. This is a first-line delimiter to stop people from simply casting spells without considering the consequences, but fits terribly with the current fast-food generation that wants everything immediately, no questions asked.

How dare I want to protect what I’ve worked to learn over two decades!
Once again! Beautifully and clearly put! I could not agree more :)
I have never heard of Konstantinos, even in all my furious searches and informational binges - I am checking him out now!
I'm heading the Hedgewitch way - it seems to fit me and my personality. Or should I say, I seem to fit the (traditional/genuine) hedgewitch personality. I'm willing to make the sacrifices needed and put in the work and earn the wisdom that comes with it.

Thanks again for your wonderfully eloquent posts (here and on the other thread where the discussion was similar) and putting in words what I have felt but couldn't quite find a way to say :)
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Re: The Real Meaning of Wicca

Post by Xiao Rong »

I'm going to split this thread because I see this discussion as having diverged quite a lot from its original intent, and I don't think so much collective contempt for newcomers belongs in the Witchcraft 101 forum which is used by (surprisingly) a lot of newcomers.
The Pagan community has had a good couple of decades to sort this out, and there’s still no reconciliation in sight. There needs to be some kind of bridge between a group of older Wiccans who largely despise youngsters who they see as incapable of looking beyond their next spell, and a group of younger witches who don’t want to be told what to do by a bunch of old codgers that don’t understand them. Personally, I think this is exasperated by the fact that the vanguard of Gardner, Valiente (both deceased), Buckland or the Farrar’s (getting on in years) wasn’t replaced by a younger or more vibrant version of itself; it was replaced by authors the like of Ravenwolf, who weren’t interested in properly representing Wicca, if indeed they ever knew what it was in the first place.

To me, the generational problem can only be solved by a coven or individual that can reintegrate original practices meaningfully, but in a modern format that youngsters can relate to. It’d probably need to be a labour of love, purely by virtue of the fact that it wouldn’t be particularly profitable, and would take a large amount of time and effort.
Well, speaking as a millenial, I think you'd be surprised. It's been my experience interacting with a lot of young people on this forum who quickly grow very bored of the Witchcraft/Wicca 101 material and start looking elsewhere for deeper material. Silver Ravenwolf is barely even a blip on the radar anymore -- I would say she's only memorable to people who are 30+, really. Actually, I think Wicca is increasingly becoming sidelined and fewer and fewer young people identify as Wiccan because it is perceived as either too introductory (filled with a lot of the same generic books) or too exclusive, both in terms of the difficulty of finding a local, in-person group and in terms of an older generation that has nothing but disdain for them, as evident from this conversation. Which I think is ultimately a detriment to Wicca's survival.

Instead, I would say that young people are gravitating to a vibrant movement towards devotional polytheism, which takes a lot of different forms but for the most part is very thoughtful and takes both scholarship and personal experience with divinity seriously ... although some of them also question whether or not they should even be counted as Pagans anymore. You'll see a lot of that on Gods and Radicals, http://www.Polytheist.com, as well as in the Wild Hunt newsfeed and on Pagan Patheos, where a lot of very interesting work is being done.
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Re: "Get Off My Lawn!": Generational Differences in Wicca

Post by HopefulChild »

I absolutely LOVE the change of title! That is hilarious.

I would say that contempt is a much more complex emotion and not to be counted the same as disgust.

The textbook definition of contempt is too short sighted. As an emotion contempt brings 3 things together at once. The concept that insult has been applied to the person who has contempt. Consideration of the focus of the contempt in the form that contempt is rarely if ever just a declaration without an attempt to point at where the percieved "problem" lies. And whenever contempt is expressed it is an opening for debate or discussion, it is not an end or absolute.

Insult comes when an individual feels as though their personal morals or ethics have been breached or trespassed on either willingly or because of lack of consideration.
It's easy to see that all of the individuals involved in the "contempt" aspect of this conversation are in fact dismayed and concerned that younger people are being "shoveled" content without context, and a stolen culture without applied history other than superficial treatment.
So from that realization comes acknowledgement of the concern and repeated entreaties for "a way to help/fix/correct" the situation and the rather formidable tasks that would have to be undertaken for entirely beneficent reasons.
Continuing to discuss where the problem lies shows consideration and the subject has been modeled on civil discussion instead of just flatly denouncing them as unworthy and walking away.

If it were true contempt in the pedantic form, then a few statements would have been the sum total of the conversation.

At least in my opinion.
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Re: The Real Meaning of Wicca

Post by theharmoniouscrow »

Xiao Rong wrote:I'm going to split this thread because I see this discussion as having diverged quite a lot from its original intent, and I don't think so much collective contempt for newcomers belongs in the Witchcraft 101 forum which is used by (surprisingly) a lot of newcomers.

Instead, I would say that young people are gravitating to a vibrant movement towards devotional polytheism, which takes a lot of different forms but for the most part is very thoughtful and takes both scholarship and personal experience with divinity seriously ... although some of them also question whether or not they should even be counted as Pagans anymore. You'll see a lot of that on Gods and Radicals, http://www.Polytheist.com, as well as in the Wild Hunt newsfeed and on Pagan Patheos, where a lot of very interesting work is being done.
I wanted to say that I hold no contempt for anyone that follows Wicca as it "was" or as they see it now or as they wish it to be. Contempt is a strong word, anyway - more like... disappointed. Disappointed at, what I feel is a lack of "work" when it comes to things these days from the newest generation. And, as always, it's a generalisation - there are loads of young people who DO put in the work and effort and don't expect things handed to them... but they seem to be the exceptions to the rule, rather than the majority. This is, of course, only my opinion.
And let me restate - I am not a Wiccan, so I really shouldn't be wading in to this discussion too deeply, except that in my search for my Path, I have done rather a lot of reading and research and I was quite confused/surprised at the vast differences and the .. I suppose the word is "misuse" of the term Wicca, as far as I understood it through my reading.
I don't normally get riled up by anything, but this "topic" (not just Wicca, but the whole generational thing) is something that I've had discussions/thoughts about for a long time now (being a GRUMPY OLD LADY!) which touches on things that get my petticoats in a twist. That being said - I'm a very non-confrontational type of person (each to their own, as I say all the time) and I want to give apologies to anyone I may have offended or hurt by lumping them in to my "finger waggling" group.

*adjusts false teeth*
*slowly turns walker around and heads back inside*
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Re: "Get Off My Lawn!": Generational Differences in Wicca

Post by Sakura Blossom »

I'm slow to the party here but I'd like to weigh in my two cents. I'll try to make sense of my thoughts but sometimes I tend to ramble. Haha! Hopefully I don't miss anything and am not missing the point here.

I have a few issues I take with the idea of the "New Age Witchcraft/Wicca" not being considered a legitimate practice (I'm not sure if I'm phrasing this right).

To start off with - The idea of doing what feels right to you. Isn't this what all religion is and also how all of it came to be? The founders of religions, regardless of any prophets or lack-there-of they might have had, wrote down certain ideals, laws, etc. to follow and those who follow it feel it's right to them. Is it really another's right to tell those who believe something that their beliefs are illegitimate just because you believe something different? I have to say I very much disagree with the idea of this. I am one of those who does always say "do what feels right" because honestly that's how I feel things should be done. If something doesn't feel right to you, then why do it? There's no sense in allowing discomfort with a certain religious belief or practice that is meant for *you* rather than someone else.

On top of this, I always come from the mindset that we don't truly know the answers to what is and what isn't. There may be a set of beliefs associated with Wicca but that doesn't necessarily mean that it's what makes Wicca the religion it is. I know some people who call themselves Wiccan who don't follow everything laid out in the religion but I still consider them Wiccan because they do identify with some of the messages the religion sends out. We may never know if there's one truth out there for what a religion really is because we don't have the means of answering these questions with facts; merely speculations and theories. While maybe some of these new age beliefs may have been stirred from media representation of witchcraft and Wicca doesn't mean that anyone's beliefs are less than someone else's nor does this mean that everyone is going to be getting into the same area of interest.

I got my start because of The Craft and I also read some of Silver Ravenwolf's Teen Witch because it was what was easily accessible to me. I didn't stay with those paths because they didn't feel right to me and it wasn't what aligned with my developing belief system. Does this mean my belief system is invalid because I chose to believe in this sort of path? No, I don't think so at all just as others feel they're right in their own beliefs. I very much support the idea of doing what feels right to you because I've always said that if no one's hurting anyone else then they have the right to believe and practice what they want with the right to call it their "religion". Until we have valid proof of what something is or isn't with religions we will continue to see various viewpoints. We wouldn't have had Wicca if we hadn't had those people who believed what they were doing or thought was "right" by daring to think outside the box of other religions.

On another note, while this may seem like it's a lack of "work" on their end I feel like it's not. Where work is "lacking" in some areas it may be heavier in another. Listening to your intuition, for example, takes a lot of energy and effort as well as practice which ties into the idea of listening to what your heart tells you to do with religious paths.

Aside from this; I will concede that some of the newer age paths are a little easier than the older due to the lack of research and I can understand the viewpoint of the newer age methods leaving out important origin information. I'm an advocate for these new paths for a few reasons but one of the most important is because someone who is interested in this kind of path but maybe struggles with heavy research and study (for example, someone who has cognitive impairments with memorization or being able to read longer books/articles/etc.) can find an easier way to ease into something. If it ends up resonating with them in a way that they want to make this their sole practice; by all means, I think they should go for it. If it ends up bringing them to another path like mine did then they're just as valid in that aspect of things too. This isn't just limited for those who may struggle in that kind of area either. I think it's a very wonderful starting point to get someone interested in Paganism.

I can tell I'm rambling so what I'm really trying to get at here is that religion and beliefs are such an abstract thing that I feel no one has the right to say anything one way or another about someone else's beliefs because they're not your own. While I think it's wonderful to have varying viewpoints and this proves that we just don't have a set way of doing things (if we did, all of us wouldn't be having this discussion right now); I also think it's highly imperative that we remember no one person can ever be an expert of anything due to knowledge being ever-changing and limited with what we know in this realm here. This, to me, grants the right for others to believe what they wish to believe and call themselves what they wish to be called.
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Re: "Get Off My Lawn!": Generational Differences in Wicca

Post by SnowCat »

I'm a Crone who has never been able to take Silver Ravenwolf seriously. The name just screams fluffiness to me. I am definitely 30+. I've been practicing for 40+. I want our younger members to stay interested and enthused about their craft.

On another note, I was thinking about Imperious believing in the necessity of harm. I hope I have that right. I had a difficult time accepting that idea until I thought about it in depth. I'm a proponent of a diverse spiritual ecosystem. That being said, diversity can't all be about sweetness and light, and still be diverse. Without dark, we wouldn't recognize light. Magic is about balance. Doing harm is an intrinsic part of the balance.

Snow
Daughter of Sekhmet
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Becks
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Re: "Get Off My Lawn!": Generational Differences in Wicca

Post by Becks »

I can't speak to it because Imperious didn't elaborate. I'm sure there's a lot more to understand as you elude to Snow.

I think about my experiences, and I'm really fortunate that I've been able to ground bad work and avoid knowingly hurting people to my knowledge....I try to be mindful, but who is to say?

I think that this would make for a very interesting open discussion. That being said, I'm not sure that topic is something that might be considered contentious and I'm not sure it fits within the comfort zone of the folks here. I'd like to respect the wishes and comfort levels of folks here.
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HopefulChild
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Re: "Get Off My Lawn!": Generational Differences in Wicca

Post by HopefulChild »

SnowCat wrote:I'm a Crone who has never been able to take Silver Ravenwolf seriously. The name just screams fluffiness to me. I am definitely 30+. I've been practicing for 40+. I want our younger members to stay interested and enthused about their craft.

On another note, I was thinking about Imperious believing in the necessity of harm. I hope I have that right. I had a difficult time accepting that idea until I thought about it in depth. I'm a proponent of a diverse spiritual ecosystem. That being said, diversity can't all be about sweetness and light, and still be diverse. Without dark, we wouldn't recognize light. Magic is about balance. Doing harm is an intrinsic part of the balance.

Snow
I'm certainly a brand new practitioner...I feel a pang of guilt even writing that because as of yet, I don't really practice and it feels insincere to claim I do.

And I utterly and totally lack faith. I have no faith. I have no more faith today than I did a month ago, or a year ago, or 20 years ago.

What I have, is knowledge. I gained knowledge that I could not ignore, given to me from someone I also could not ignore.
The very first thing that stood out to me about Wicca as a religion is that Wicca required no faith.

Wicca had no real requirements, because what I understand is that Wicca is a formal acceptance of ones role in the natural order and an acknowledgement that there must be levels to the order that are hidden.
I can do that.
Now particular acts of magic, I understand, would require faith. It's why I don't attempt them. I don't even know where to begin to activate my internal faith.

The next thing that struck me was the importance of balance. I was still struggling with realities of emotional balance versus societal expectations and allowing myself to really feel the emotions I had on a daily basis.
In simpler terms, I working as hard as I could, as fast as I could to increase the density of my shadow. Don't know why. It's how I was trained. Run on logic, run on reason, all emotions except for love and bravery are to be suppressed.

The things that began to make more sense over the first year that I was studying Wicca as a religious system all had to do with living my emotions and acknowledging them and being honest with myself about them and trying to live in balance with them and other people and my surroundings.
I hurt people. Emotionally. I know that I did. But everything I read and studied stated unequivocally that my intent was where I needed to focus my attention. If my intentions were honest, and made in good faith, and harm resulted, then I hadn't done something "wrong".
That is accepting balance and I still struggle with it sometimes when someone asks me a question, and I know the honest answer isn't going to result in rainbows shooting between us. I don't bend the truth. I have excluded myself from answering the question. hehehe. That is trickier than it sounds.
And I don't mean questions like, "does this make my butt look big".. I mean questions when someone you care about has tears in their eyes and asks, "Am I a good person"...and the answer you want to give is no, you are not a good person.
I've given that answer and tried to be as kind and helpful as I can.
It's lost me some friends. But it has made me happier and more centered and more in tune with who I am and I don't think I ever want to give that up.

Harm can't be avoided. Malicious intent can be avoided. Anger and irritation and even contempt can't be pushed aside. They just turn to shadow. Why transMute, what you could transLate?
Talking about the things that push our buttons may do harm, but if we talk about them to clear our minds of the negative impact they are having, and we release those frustrations into the world with honesty and in good faith, is the harm that comes from them "wrong", or simply a consequence of better understanding ourselves?
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