What Do You Think Happens When We Die?

Discussion of Reincarnation, Afterlife, Life-Between-Lives (LBL)...
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Becks
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What Do You Think Happens When We Die?

Post by Becks »

There was a fascinating discussion in another thread that began to derail, but good things were coming up....folks were touching on the big question of what happens when the earth walk is finished and we die. I have some thoughts on this subject, but I'm curious as to what you folks think happens when we slip the mortal coil and trip the light fantastic?
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Re: What Do You Think Happens When We Die?

Post by Seraphin »

I am an Afro-Caribbean Tradition (Yoruba, Santeria, Voodoo, Hoodoo, Lucumi), Ancient Near Eastern, Daemonolator polytheist who believes in the Otherworlds as a series of distinct realms outside of this physical realm or plane which has greatly influenced my belief on the subject. :) :lol:

I believe that when we die we do one of several things...
  • Go into the Realm of the Dead of particular path or tradition

    I believe that somewhere in the Otherworlds are the Lands of the Dead of different paths' cosmologies, and that's where each of us go when we die. To me, the Otherworlds are vast and distinct -- inside the realms of spiritual plane are hundreds of realms of the dead within the Otherworlds. So somewhere in the Otherworlds is Heaven and Hell for the Christians; the Irkalla or Kur of Ancient Mesopotamians and Sumerian polytheists; the Aaru and Duat of Ancient Egyptians and Kemetics; the Elysian fields and Tartarus for the Ancient Greeks and Hellenics; Summerlands for the Wiccans and neo-Wiccans; Guinee of Vodoos; etc, etc, etc.

    For me personally, I will likely go into "Kur" (The Land of No Return) which is ruled by the Goddess Ereshkigal and Her consort, the death God Nergal (who both belong to my pantheon).

    If I died, my soul would pass through the seven gates of the netherworld leaving articles of clothing and adornment at each gate, which would serve as toll fees for my passage and to keep me from going the wrong path. My fiancee and I called Kur or Irkalla as the 'Otherwordly Washing Machine.' Because that's exactly how it works for us. The way our soul is cleansed in Kur is similar to the way our clothes being taken off and are cleansed in a washing machine. This is the symbolic meaning of leaving articles of clothing at each gate.

    This is like putting myself in my filthy shirt's shoes, so to speak. If I were to be taken off and thrown into boiling hot water and flung around for half an hour, I might start to feel that the person who owns me doesn't really like me. However, the fact is that it's only after going through a wash cycle that I as a shirt can be used again.

    We don't put our dirty clothes in the washing machine to punish them. We put them through what seems like a rough and painful procedure only to make them clean and usable again. The water loosens the dirt, and the force of being swirled around shakes any stain or grease off completely. Far from hurting our clothes, I'm actually doing them a favor by putting them through this process.

    So too with my soul. Every act I do in my lifetime in my opinion leaves an imprint on my soul. The positive ones I do brightens and elevates my soul, and every wrongdoing leaves a dirt, rust or stain that needs to be cleansed. If, at the end of my life, I leave this physical world without fixing the wrongs I've done, my soul is unable to reach its place of rest on high. I must go through a cycle of deep cleansing. Again, this is not a punishment as Irkalla had no punishment or reward, with both Erishkigal and Nergal being seen as both warden and guardian of the dead rather than an 'evil' ruler like Christian version of Satan.

    Of course, this whole process can be avoided. If I choose to be reincarnated and make amends with the souls I have hurt, I can leave this world with "clean clothes."
  • Remain earthbound

    If I die a sudden and traumatic death (accidents, murder or suicide) then there's a high chance I'll remain earthbound. This is because I'm still in a state of shock. Based on countless documented stories from around the world since the beginning of man's history, spirits or souls don't automatically get catapulted to the land of the dead at once. Some are still around for a while. This is nothing new but many people, especially the conservative Christians, still have a hard time accepting it. Usually 'earthbound' means that I'm not here in the physical plane by choice, but that I can't move on for whatever reason. Either I'm not aware that I'm already dead, I still have some unfinished business that wont let me move on or just don't know where to go. This is the reason why spirits of the departed can be seen in places where they once lived, worked, played or last seen.
  • Choose to remain Earthbound

    This would happen when I choose not to move on. Perhaps I want to stay and watch over my families or whatever. Or I want to wreak some havoc on the living because of revenge, vengeance or retribution. Or I'm seeking answers and justice. Sometimes being earthbound is a conscious decision and if your will is strong enough then you can make it happen.
  • Become Spirit Guides, Ascended Masters, Guardians, etc.

    In Yoruba tradition, death is not the end of life; rather, it is a transition which is more properly called 'change of life'. The Yoruba believe that the soul of the departed must exist somewhere in some otherworld. Elders may also choose to remain as Ancestral spirit. They continue on, watching over their descendants to ensure that they are safe and grow to be honorable. I think that this probably happens more in modern times than we realize, at least on a temporary level. You often hear stories of people who are haunted by dead relatives and I think that this is a similar concept.
  • Reincarnate

    I do believe in reincarnation, but not as the inevitable thing that many people do. I don't think that it happens to EVERYONE and I don't think that it's a set, unchangeable process, but it's definitely one of the options out there and many souls prefer to do it.

    I think it's likely that reincarnation is linked to religion and cosmology. I believe there bare souls or spirits that will always reincarnate because that is the purpose of their faith to evolve to the point of enlightenment, perfection, evolution or ascension. I think this is a characteristic of transcendental religions in particular, such as Buddhism and Hinduism, and also Jewish Kabbalah. So for some people, reincarnation is a set automatic thing that will happen to them once they die. Whereas for others it may not be a part of their afterlife at all.

    In Yoruba traditions and in my belief, it is just one of several options - some people do and some people don't.
Where do the souls or spirits choose their path?

One school of thought (Theosophy, specifically) proposes that when a person dies, his soul and spirit goes to anotherworld called the "Devachanic Plane" located in the mental plane where it is met by ancestors or spirit guides. The guides will show in detail the life he has just left and they will know the effects that his thoughts, emotions, intentions and works had on other people. From this panoramic review of his life, he will make a decision whether he will go to the land of the dead to learn his lessons, become a guide, helper or guardian to others, or go back to earth as a new incarnation to work out his karma.

Of course, this is just my opinion as you have requested. Therefore, you may accept or reject it.

Anyway... that's my thoughts :lol:
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Re: What Do You Think Happens When We Die?

Post by Becks »

This is so wonderful Seraphin. I have felt that for some reincarnation happens. It is a believed by the people where I come from. I have impressions from dreams and think it has played a part in my experience. I have also felt guides, and earthbound spirits and contemplated ideas of heaven and hell ( though that is not what I choose to believe for myself). I have felt very distinctly that all of these things are possible. I have never felt the need to know exactly how it all is possible at the same time, but I have always believed that there were multi-dimensional axis well beyond my thinking on this plane. The mechanics have never been overly important to me....well, more accurately-I am comfortable with the great mystery and not knowing exactly.

I think this is very possible, and appreciate your deep insight and knowledge Seraphin. It would certainly explain how it can all be.....
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Re: What Do You Think Happens When We Die?

Post by HopefulChild »

Seraphin Murmur wrote:
This is like putting myself in my filthy shirt's shoes, so to speak. If I were to be taken off and thrown into boiling hot water and flung around for half an hour, I might start to feel that the person who owns me doesn't really like me. However, the fact is that it's only after going through a wash cycle that I as a shirt can be used again.

We don't put our dirty clothes in the washing machine to punish them. We put them through what seems like a rough and painful procedure only to make them clean and usable again. The water loosens the dirt, and the force of being swirled around shakes any stain or grease off completely. Far from hurting our clothes, I'm actually doing them a favor by putting them through this process.
I like the analogy but dislike the context and implication. It still implies that someone or something is judging my actions and keeping a tally of things that were deemed wrong or bad.

Who gets to do that? When did I sign up for that?
I do believe there is an overall design to the universe, and there is a goal. I also feel confidently that the river of time was just about the only Sumerian concept that didn't get utterly corrupted by the Ruling Theocracy toward the end of their reign.
The Sumerian
The river of time is both deep and wide, and our spirits come about from the energies present in the river. This is how a new soul comes about. We choose to exist. From the elements and energies that existed from the big bang, we can form ourselves in the rivers energies. If we choose that we should want to experience the different flavors of reality we can move into a body and be born.
When we died that energy is returned to the river. We can move along with the river and choose another point to leave the water, or we can reenter life through another body. Time has continued to push on with the flow of the river, so the process of being born again takes away from us some of the energy we built up, we have to fit a whole life into a new brain, which could be problematic so for the most part, we leave it behind, but we can sometimes remember, and from time to time individuals are reborn still connected to the energies they left behind.

My concept isn't much different. All things happen inside the scope of the river. So even the other dimensions that exist are all fed by the same river and they flow from the force of the river the same as the world we sit in now.

The questions that beg to me are about the veil.
The physical barriers between the dimensions. Most witches, and a large portion of Wiccans in general agree with the veil. Though I haven't seen many express an opinion about multiple veils. Just one encompassing barrier between us and everything else.

I understand the general concepts of shamanism and the spirit worlds, and even those seem extraordinarily limited in scope considering what we know as a species about energy.

With the endless universe postulation the river model is just as consistent as the root star model and collapsing dimension engine model so I look at all of them as one concept.

In that case, I'll explain how I understand it. All we know is constantly moving. Instead of the cyclic model of a big bang, then a big collapse which results in another big bang, to intifnity, (or until the return function reaches inverse square) or the infinite string concept that because of overlapping resonance infinite universes are constantly being generated in both directions, the Endless universe pushes both of those models together.

There was a big bang. All things flowed out from it, the overlap in vibration resonance (literally where realities collide) did create an infinite string of new universes. BUT...the density and gravity of the ROOT universe and the ROOT star are so massive and dense that new universes created from weak interactions of vibration resonance aren't strong enough to escape the root so they get collapsed, which causes new pushes inside the universes that did escape the gravity of the root. In turn, those interactions create more vibrations which create more realities, some of which are caused by strong enough events to escape and become a new thing, and some are weak and get collapsed and used as fuel to keep moving the universes that already exist.

It makes an engine. For all intents and purposes, an endless reality engine.

So in this model, once our unique energy/aura/field resonance/ soul is created we can go back in to the river, and go from the river into one of the other realities that exists. Or loop back into this world to try it out again. Or we can stay behind and stay linked as just energy.

The scary concept is what could happen if I get back to the river, and I choose to jump into a newly created reality, and that reality isn't strong enough to survive the root.
That is one of the instances where I imagine souls are really lost. They are collapsed with the weaker reality, and torn into parts and they make up a wave in the river that keeps pushing everything along.

The other thing the constantly speaks to me about this model, is that it has "roots"...and the roots support the branching and continuous growth and the branching supplies the energy and materials that the roots need to keep growing, and that is so close to the tree of life in concept that it feels like puzzle pieces that fit perfectly together.

So to sum up. That which makes us..."us"..has been and will continue to be a unique form of energy. Self generated from the root of existence.
The majority of things that I feel people ascribe to our spirit and potentials for the afterlife are constructs based on our living principles of "culture", "civilization" , and the "social contract" alive humans work inside of while our meat machines are bumping into each other on this plane.

That isn't to say we don't take some of those concepts with us back to the river and then carry them in to other realities. Probability indicates if we can, we would. So that allows for further constructs outside our reality and the reality of the soul...but at the end of the day, I see it as improbable that my soul has to be "cleaned" for any reason.

Who is to say that my perceived cruelty wasn't required so that someone else could have a learning and personal growth experience that they needed to understand a larger concept of self. So how does my instance of cruelty get judged? And by whom if it in fact led to an advance for another individuals soul?

At least in my opinion.

now here
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Re: What Do You Think Happens When We Die?

Post by Seraphin »

HopefulChild wrote:I like the analogy but dislike the context and implication. It still implies that someone or something is judging my actions and keeping a tally of things that were deemed wrong or bad.
I don't actually see it that way honestly, it's not a question of someone is judging me, it is merely a natural demand to restore the harmony in universe which I have by my wrongdoing disturbed.

I believe when the soul departs from the body, it stands before the otherwordly court which is in Ancient Mesopotamian cosmos are the seven guardians of the seven gates of Irkalla (Greeks believe they have three judges named Minos, Aeacus and Radhamanthus), to give a "judgment and accounting" of its earthly life and ask to leave one article of clothing. However, the gatekeepers does only the 'accounting' part in my belief; the 'judgment' part -- that, only the soul itself can do. I believe only the soul can pass judgment on itself; only it can know, understand and discern the true extent of what it fulfilled, or neglected to fulfill, in the course of its living here in earth. Similar to the Norse concept of "Nastrond", Northen people's souls go there because they feel that they deserve to be there for some action that they did (on a subconscious level, usually and our subconscious in my opinion and experience never lie). Freed from the boundaries, veils, screens and concealment of the physical state, we can now see spiritually; it can now do recognition or looking back its life history and experience what it truly was.
Who gets to do that? When did I sign up for that?
It would be hard for you to understand if you do not view the Deities the same as I view them. I'm hard polytheist but I'm also panentheist so for me, though Deities are sentient distinct Gods, They are not just anthropomorphic or personal Deities but abstract cosmic entities. I do believe in a Divine Force or Source inherent in, and transcending, the universe.
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Re: What Do You Think Happens When We Die?

Post by Becks »

Oh my goodness this is such an interesting thread. What great thoughts come out. Something Seraphin said really resonated with me.....
Seraphin Murmur wrote:
I don't actually see it that way honestly, it's not a question of someone is judging me, it is merely a natural demand to restore the harmony in universe which I have by my wrongdoing disturbed.
I have never felt judged...or feared judgment for wrongdoing....mostly because I know myself and feel a desire to be in harmony with others...to honour the natural balance if you will. I'm prepared to do my part with mindful action now, and to
Get help and learn about what I may have missed. I think I perceive that there is balance and that my goal is to live within it, and that's why I liked the way that was stated.

I may have to consider that I may actually be polytheistic....that's big for me considering how I was raised. I still don't know if everything eminates from a single source if you will....or just how it works....I have always been drawn to certain gods and felt their energy and importance...they have never felt 'lesser'. Being raised monotheistic left an impression in my head and I've just always thought there must be a way it all fits somehow. After all, our perception is so narrow on this plane.

As I said, ultimately I'm okay not to know what's going to happen or how it all works, but thinking about it is so much fun.
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Re: What Do You Think Happens When We Die?

Post by Seraphin »

Becks wrote:I may have to consider that I may actually be polytheistic....that's big for me considering how I was raised. I still don't know if everything eminates from a single source if you will....or just how it works....
That belief that everything emanates from a single Divine source is a panentheist view. I believe this Source or Force is what connects everything together and holds the strings of the Cosmic Order together.
I have always been drawn to certain gods and felt their energy and importance...they have never felt 'lesser'. Being raised monotheistic left an impression in my head and I've just always thought there must be a way it all fits somehow.
I would suggest you to do a bit of research on polytheism and all the other little '-ism' terms that those searches bring up, because it will help you settle in your head just who you feel the Gods are or the God is. I'm wondering since you're raised, monotheistic, do you still use the term God? No that this is a not right term, I just want to know.
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Re: What Do You Think Happens When We Die?

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It isn't hard to understand. I just discount the entire concept as too arrogant.

Even the soul judging itself, would be judging itself based on criteria that are only applicable under strict confines of the concepts under which we live "in the now". Our concepts now are driven by culture, civilization, and the social contract. Even our personal ethos is a collection of moral and ethical effigies erected over time as we develop our concept of self and our concept of responsibility to our "community".

My view is that once this life is ended, and our soul is loosed from this plane, what responsibilities do we carry to it then?
Does the spirit of the lion, seek out the spirits of the zebra to thank them for helping it continue to live, while they died?
Do I have a responsibility to myself to seek out the all the individual souls that made up my chicken nuggets over my life time and let them know I held no ill will toward them?

Why must I discern what it is I learned, or did not learn? How does this same situation apply to a dog or an elephant or squid? Are their unique energies of less value and countenance in the universal scheme because they simply exist and don't extol or live the virtues of generational community development?

Do the gods of the mice, apply the same ethical framework as the gods of the owls???

How does this concept apply to a child who died in his crib before he learned to communicate anything other than primary needs? How is that unlearned soul to judge itself? Will it be trapped in an endless loop of rebirth and death simply because it cannot reach the cognitive stage of self evaluation?

I think your model relies too heavily on the personal development of the intellect and ignores the great expanse of life that exists around us. 7 Billion people....Hundreds of billions of mammals. A million billion vertebrates and Trillions of insects, and an incalculable mass of "simpler" life forms.

What heavenly court looks at the life of the mayfly and decides the value of it's 24 hour existence?
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Re: What Do You Think Happens When We Die?

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HopefulChild wrote:It isn't hard to understand. I just discount the entire concept as too arrogant.

Even the soul judging itself, would be judging itself based on criteria that are only applicable under strict confines of the concepts under which we live "in the now". Our concepts now are driven by culture, civilization, and the social contract. Even our personal ethos is a collection of moral and ethical effigies erected over time as we develop our concept of self and our concept of responsibility to our "community".
I personally don't think the concept (which is by the way my personal belief) is arrogant as it actually give me solid philosophy of optimism, equality and fairness.

And nope the criteria is not based on the factors you said, not by our personal ethos nor by our moral and ethical effigies but by the Cosmic Order set up in the beginning of the time. This Cosmic Order differs from one cosmology to another. It depends upon what tradition you hold.

In my cosmology which is greatly influenced by Ancient Near Eastern mythos, Kabbalah and Yoruba tradition, no action, regardless if its positive and negative, is devoid of consequences. All thoughts, emotions, words, decisions and actions have cosmic effect, leading to an increase or decrease of my spirituality. Thus, I personally believe there's a right and wrong way for each action, each pattern of thoughts and emotions.

I also believe there's a cosmic correspondence that has been built between the physical actions of human bodies (this includes our thinking, our feeling, and our decisions and judgments) and the development of the souls, and between the manipulations of physical things and the improvement of spiritual aspects. The entire physical cosmos I see and perceive is a set of figures and symbols corresponding to entities in the spiritual cosmos.

The Cosmic Order governing the manipulation of these symbols is what I call 'tradition'. By applying the proper transformations, by keeping and observing the verdicts of Cosmic Order as applied to my everyday life, to every action, emotion and thought, I obtain new combinations of the figures and symbols (the physical things and actions) and thereby I obtain new spiritual patterns. Just as physics tells us how to manipulate mathematical symbols in order to obtain the sum, the difference, the product and the quotient of a certain problem, my chosen tradition tells me how to manipulate physical entities (ourselves, materials, actions) in order to manifest answers which are the truths of the spiritual cosmos.

Sorry but I personally don't believe in doing something then wash my hands of any responsibility. It's exactly the same in magick. There's no such thing as a spellwork that can't be traced back to you and which you can absolve yourself of all the outcome. Every little thing we do in mundane life and magickal work has an effect on all planes of existence and cosmos. That's why when you're going to plan to do something, make sure that you are willing to accept that responsibility before you take another step I know that in certain Satanic and Luciferian paths, people are encouraged to see the world in an 'they did it to themselves' light, but I don't agree with that. Working with some Deific Daemons and 'cause and effect' will give a person a slightly different perspective when it comes to people's actions.
My view is that once this life is ended, and our soul is loosed from this plane, what responsibilities do we carry to it then?
Does the spirit of the lion, seek out the spirits of the zebra to thank them for helping it continue to live, while they died?
Do I have a responsibility to myself to seek out the all the individual souls that made up my chicken nuggets over my life time and let them know I held no ill will toward them?

Why must I discern what it is I learned, or did not learn? How does this same situation apply to a dog or an elephant or squid? Are their unique energies of less value and countenance in the universal scheme because they simply exist and don't extol or live the virtues of generational community development?

Do the gods of the mice, apply the same ethical framework as the gods of the owls???
What heavenly court looks at the life of the mayfly and decides the value of it's 24 hour existence
At first when I read your questions and statements, I thought these are just all metaphors or analogies but it seems that you're really pertaining to the animal souls.

I personally believe animal souls differ from human souls. Yep, I do agree that everything in this world has the spirit, force or whatever but a soul of a person is very distinct and different from the soul of an elephant, a dog, a mice, a squid, a sponge or a plankton.

I believe man's soul comes from the very essence of the Divine Source (which is different from the Deities) whereas the soul of animals just contain a relatively superficial level of Divine. I believe the Divine Source invested in us, human beings the power to elevate the force that are found throughout other beings, entities and things such as animals and plants. It's for this reason that I believe, the way an animal's soul is elevated and returned after its death to the Divine Source is through its positive and spiritual interactions with man.

So, for instance, we can elevate the force, essence or soul of a cow by making a proper blessing when eating, and by using the energy gained for positive acts whateverthey are, or when we use the meat in our magickal or spiritual works or when we offered them to our Deities or spirits. However, unlike a person's afterlife, in which the souls consciously choose if they're going to the land of the dead, reincarnate, be a guide, etc. the animal soul merely returns to the Divine Source in an elevated spiritual state.

In the end, while I view animals as a lower life form and very different from us, I still recognize that animals too still have divine force and thus, have souls that live on and can be elevated. This idea shows me with an enormous responsibility in my interactions with the animal kingdom.
How does this concept apply to a child who died in his crib before he learned to communicate anything other than primary needs? How is that unlearned soul to judge itself? Will it be trapped in an endless loop of rebirth and death simply because it cannot reach the cognitive stage of self evaluation?
Actually in Yoruba tradition, this is held as a truth. :)
I think your model relies too heavily on the personal development of the intellect and ignores the great expanse of life that exists around us. 7 Billion people....Hundreds of billions of mammals. A million billion vertebrates and Trillions of insects, and an incalculable mass of "simpler" life forms.
I don't think the model I've presented here relies too heavily on the personal development of intellect but rather just relies on the spiritual development of human souls as I didn't include what would happen to the souls of the animals when they die.
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Re: What Do You Think Happens When We Die?

Post by HopefulChild »

It is a simple distinction.

I just feel that it has significant and far reaching implications when there is a distinction made between a human spirit and an animal spirit. I see humans as animals.

I apologize if I wasn't clear that I was literally discussing animals. I hold the view that the tree of life is literally a family tree. I don't think I could look at my human family tree and begin to pick and choose which relatives are beneath me or have a different kind of soul than the one I have.

That is why I feel it is arrogant. And I don't intend the word arrogant to have any insult, It's just a state of consideration.
"Sorry but I personally don't believe in doing something then wash my hands of any responsibility."
Seraphin Murmur
I don't believe that either. In doing magic, I don't feel my responsibility is to the cosmos. My decisions and actions will affect my soul. And that is a lesson or understanding that each person needs to take seriously in my opinion. But I don't think there is a form of judgement or measurement after we move into the next phase.

Intentional harm and cruelty can't be good for you. The evidence and historical precedent is overwhelmingly in favor of this. Cruelty to yourself and others affects your brain patterns, changes your thinking, and so on. The simplest anecdote is a quote from Mahatma Gandhi -
Your beliefs become your thoughts,
Your thoughts become your words,
Your words become your actions,
Your actions become your habits,
Your habits become your values,
Your values become your destiny


This isn't profound or divine information. This is linear extrapolation.
Grand Destiny as a statement of the truth of ones manifestation of ourself, is a core concept in almost all magical systems that I have even glimpsed.

I must admit that other than seeing Yoruba listed as an influence of Vodun and Santeria, and seeing a ceremonial costume associated with Togo and Yoruba, I haven't studied it so maybe there is no Destiny Self in that system. Though it sounds like you have a similar outlook since you make a distinction between the value of souls.

In my research, I decided to go back to the simplest concepts because too much gets built on systems that become dogmatic. So the concept that human spirit energy is somehow of greater significance than that of an insect, seems ludicrous to me.

Every living thing is a success story spanning the entire history of this planet. Billions upon billions of interactions through time all had to succeed in order for that form of life to exist...right now. That is not mundane. That is miraculous. It seems mundane because we take it for granted.

How does Yoruba address Soul Evolution? Or does it? You mentioned "elevated spiritual state," but what does that mean?
Once elevated is the cow no longer a cow?
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Re: What Do You Think Happens When We Die?

Post by Becks »

HopefulChild wrote:It isn't hard to understand. I just discount the entire concept as too arrogant.

Even the soul judging itself, would be judging itself based on criteria that are only applicable under strict confines of the concepts under which we live "in the now". Our concepts now are driven by culture, civilization, and the social contract.
I didn't get that at all from what Seraphin wrote. He didn't explain judgement as a loaded cultural construct. I don't think we weigh the meanings of differing life forms in terms of a human construct. That's a little 19th century "great chain of being" for my personal liking. To me it reads a lot more life "reflection" versus judgement. An animal is an animal......I believe they have spirits and consciousness, but unlike a human an animal can't live out of balance in the environment. Ecosystems are always seeking balance and animals are always evolving, behaving to fulfill the available niches. Your example of a new baby that dies before its time.....young children have not yet learned the complexities of life and chosen things that are out of harmony.

In terms of the Chicken Nugget-eating food to survive is not out of balance. I think that wasting food, being disrespectful to the beings that give us food, or raising food that is mistreated or destructive to the earth might not be "in balance" so to speak.
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Re: What Do You Think Happens When We Die?

Post by Becks »

Seraphin Murmur wrote:
I would suggest you to do a bit of research on polytheism and all the other little '-ism' terms that those searches bring up, because it will help you settle in your head just who you feel the Gods are or the God is. I'm wondering since you're raised, monotheistic, do you still use the term God? No that this is a not right term, I just want to know.
In terms of the "isms" sadly even a degree in Anthropology didn't tell me exactly how I feel about the structure of the beyond, and who or what the great creatorial being(s) are. I think that is because I see the world in grey and not black and white. I just keep working with those concepts. The more I learn the more I understand how the universe universe expands into a beautiful and complex multifaceted wonder-inspirer. Who am I to say how it goes. I'm here to marvel and learn as much as I can....and I'm here to wonder.

I do have to sit and reconsider if something has changed in me and my perception....

The term I use to describe a supreme creatorial force would be "the creator". It depends on who I am speaking to however, I like to speak so that I am understood, and if someone like the term God or Goddess...in discourse with that person I will probably use their term.
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HopefulChild
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Re: What Do You Think Happens When We Die?

Post by HopefulChild »

I could argue about animals living out of balance. There are plenty of examples, but I think the point is moot in this discussion because we weren't going around that particular level of distinction.

It's my position that judgement even from a self evaluation standard has no bearing in the afterlife. I'm not saying that he is wrong or that his tradition is false. I just can't agree with it. That concept directly conflicts with my view of spirit.

And his tradition does require judgement for elevation. It's very plainly written by him that a Heavenly Court makes an accounting, and then the soul makes a self evaluation of "right and wrong" actions, and he states that in applying ourselves to strive for improvement we make a pact with the cosmos that there is a right and wrong way to advance our standard. That's a simplified summation of his words, but certainly his words.

To me, that is self inflicted limitations or an unattainable perfection standard applied more than likely unwittingly, off of the constructs I mentioned. I don't make the assertion or assumption that his traditions are attempting to copy an oligarchy for souls, but that since we develop inside generational community systems, we are more prone to organize information inside those frameworks whether we recognize it or not.

And not to put too fine a point on it but
How does this concept apply to a child who died in his crib before he learned to communicate anything other than primary needs? How is that unlearned soul to judge itself? Will it be trapped in an endless loop of rebirth and death simply because it cannot reach the cognitive stage of self evaluation?


Actually in Yoruba tradition, this is held as a truth. :)
That is actually less horrifying than what my model/imagination currently holds to be a high probability. But it is horrifying none the less. Since I have lost a child who was never born, it has potential for me to consider that my grief can be released because that child or that "spirit" was never going to be born...Ever.

But then the law of conservation of energy comes into play and it sticks in my mind that creating a spirit to trap it in a loop where it never gets to grow is a significant waste of energy. And the universe doesn't waste energy.

Most if not all "systems" seek improvement. It's how they become systems. I myself have worked for more than a decade as a Instructional Systems Designer, making training. So I've come into contact with just about every "improvement system" that humans have devised.

I'm pointing out that those systems, all systems, we strive for right now, are built off the concept that we can do better.
And I agree with that in life. We can do better. We can strive to do better.

I just don't think we can strive to make our soul, more soul. Our soul, our spirit, the spirit of all things, is as good as it gets when it forms itself in the origin.

Under the auspices of the above discussion would that a cow decided to contemplate his fate as dinner and then attempt to form a treatise on why everyone should be vegtarians, that cow would have improved it's soul.

I don't think a cow's soul needs improvement. Most cows I've met are good cows. Pretty well experts at "cowing"..
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Re: What Do You Think Happens When We Die?

Post by Becks »

Definitely good food for thought there as always.

Can you please explain a bit more what you mean by making a "soul more soul"? I have never attached "value" in terms of more or less soul to the idea that one can learn to live in better balance. Are you refereing to the Buddhist view of reincarnation idea of living mindfully and being born to a "higher realm"? I think it is possible that the idea of a value ascribed to souls does not have to necessarily equate with the idea of being in a "higher realm".

I am thinking of the First Nations way of viewing plants and animals with respect to humanity. The animals are borthers and sisters to us all. I liked your evolutionary tree/family tree analogy for this reason.

Animals and the overall rhythms of ecology, in terms of system design, are extremely efficient. 'Costly' displays in the animal and plant kingdom are carefully made for an important benefit. A chioce which is not helpful or efficient will be left behind in the evolutionary record.
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Re: What Do You Think Happens When We Die?

Post by Firebird »

Hi guys, this has been a really interesting thread.
To take this in another direction however.... the OP's question is what happens when we die. Not where we go. But that too is really the ultimate question.
It is in this case where I find science nature and magic to be one.
It's comforting to know since I found out about electricity and the way it works.
So then this is the bottom line, science has proven that the human body has an electrical component to it.... call it the soul or the spirit, ...whatever, although some folks have a distinction for those two as well.
What I found out about electricity is it can never die . It can only change forms,
therefore the envelopes that our human bodies are contained in may expire, but our electric body does not. smiley_dance
Where it goes after that, you all have presented some great food for thought.
I would presume I will be reborn into the arms of my mother but who that mother is, plant animal or mineral... I don't have a definitive idea of that.
Bb, Firebird
“There are things known and things unknown and in between are the Doors.”
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“All I have seen teaches me to trust the Creator for all I have not seen.”
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