Am I a Fluffy Bunny Because I'm Not in a Coven?
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[SanityIsLost]
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Am I a Fluffy Bunny Because I'm Not in a Coven?
I was in another chat about Wicca and these people who have i guess been in a coven for a while, have been saying that you have to be in a coven in order to be Wiccan. They said that anybody not in a coven was just a "fluffy bunny" pretending to be Wiccan. I don't believe this, I feel that you can choose not to join a coven and still be Wiccan but I am kind of confused now. Any thoughts?
While it is true that Wicca was originally created with practitioners organized into covens in mind, I don't agree that all Wiccans have to be affiliated with a coven. One might say that a Wiccan who is not associated with a coven is untraditional (traditional being used loosely), perhaps, but I don't think that the term 'fluff bunny' applies. The term fluff bunny is usually used to mean someone who pretends to know more than he or she does or to mean a nominal *insert title here.*
"Nothing is True; Everything is Permitted"
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BlackenedRose*
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Were they saying it to you, or just about people not in covens generally? Because if they were saying it to you, that's pretty mean and damn judgemental too. I wouldn't bother with them. Like Wolf said, it's elitist and stupid. You get it with most social circles, don't you - people who want to affirm that they are 'special' by telling other people that they aren't.
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[SanityIsLost]
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Fox Flame*
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Actually I have come across this from the mouths of traditional Wicca (Gardnerian and Alexandrian, mostly), and they weren't being elitist. They were being honest.
If I was Wiccan, I would join a coven, preferably a traditional one, because they have access to certain Wiccan Mysteries that you wouldn't get by yourself, nor with an inexperienced group. You can stumble upon them by much learned practice on your own, but traditional covens have these lessons on hand for their initiates to learn.
Even though I'm not as ceremonial as them, I can definitely see where they are coming from.
If I was Wiccan, I would join a coven, preferably a traditional one, because they have access to certain Wiccan Mysteries that you wouldn't get by yourself, nor with an inexperienced group. You can stumble upon them by much learned practice on your own, but traditional covens have these lessons on hand for their initiates to learn.
Even though I'm not as ceremonial as them, I can definitely see where they are coming from.
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Nackin
I am Gardnerian and Alexandrian and also I am in a coven. There certainly are fuzzy bunnies out there. Fuzzy bunnies are not necessarily only beginners. You might say that we go through a fuzzy bunny stage in a sense, but a fuzzy bunny actually means someone who thinks they already have the answers and refuse to learn.
Some Gards and Lexies define wiccans as being only people who have been initiated into a British Traditional Wiccan (Gardnerian, Alexandrian, Seaxe, or family tradition) coven. But many others of us feel that you can call yourself wiccan as long as you share most of the common beliefs such as the Rede, worship of male and female deities equally, etc. We might not recognize them as being Gardnerian, but do as wiccan. But many eclectics mix and match their beliefs, taking some from Buddhism, add a dash of Christianity, a bit of native religion, som reiki and call themselves wiccan. That isn't wicca. It might be called neo-pagan perhaps, but with any religion, you have to draw a line somewhere. For instance, you aren't allowed to make up a set of religious beliefs arbitrarily and call yourself Christian. The Christians would not recognize your mish mash of ideas as being Christian even if you claimed to be so.
Wiccans have the same rights to define our religion and recognize or not recognize what is ours.
Some Gards and Lexies define wiccans as being only people who have been initiated into a British Traditional Wiccan (Gardnerian, Alexandrian, Seaxe, or family tradition) coven. But many others of us feel that you can call yourself wiccan as long as you share most of the common beliefs such as the Rede, worship of male and female deities equally, etc. We might not recognize them as being Gardnerian, but do as wiccan. But many eclectics mix and match their beliefs, taking some from Buddhism, add a dash of Christianity, a bit of native religion, som reiki and call themselves wiccan. That isn't wicca. It might be called neo-pagan perhaps, but with any religion, you have to draw a line somewhere. For instance, you aren't allowed to make up a set of religious beliefs arbitrarily and call yourself Christian. The Christians would not recognize your mish mash of ideas as being Christian even if you claimed to be so.
Wiccans have the same rights to define our religion and recognize or not recognize what is ours.
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Ravenari
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Actually I have come across this from the mouths of traditional Wicca (Gardnerian and Alexandrian, mostly), and they weren't being elitist. They were being honest.
They are after all, well within their rights to believe what they want, and even to project their beliefs as we all do intrinsically.
I practiced Alexandrian Wicca, and I tend to believe that some coven experience is necessary if not crucial, if you want to practice Alexandrian or Gardnerian Wicca, on the other hand - there are enough 'offshoots' now, that it is probably more than possible to find a form which appeals to those who wish to be solitary.
They are after all, well within their rights to believe what they want, and even to project their beliefs as we all do intrinsically.
I practiced Alexandrian Wicca, and I tend to believe that some coven experience is necessary if not crucial, if you want to practice Alexandrian or Gardnerian Wicca, on the other hand - there are enough 'offshoots' now, that it is probably more than possible to find a form which appeals to those who wish to be solitary.
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Ravenari
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They might be under-educated, but it's important to realise/consider, that some covens simply do not accept solitaries as having access to all the necessary wisdom and teachings that coven and oathbound Wiccans do. This isn't being under-educated, it is a choice they make that they feel is valid, for reasons that are usually understandable. It doesn't make them wrong, it just means you might be better off seeking out another coven.
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Draconis
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It is just generally personel choice, avaliability and area ideology. If you choose not to be in a coven, for what ever reason/s, others should have the humility to respect that whether or not they agree with it privatly.
If you are unable to join a coven due to one not being avaliable near you, people should not say your not a 'real' wiccan because of your location.
And if the area you live in is highly religious and may be against 'other' religions or the 'occult' in general, you should not be judged because of others beliefs of ideology.
But aslong as you are happy with what you are doing, dont let others change it.
If you are unable to join a coven due to one not being avaliable near you, people should not say your not a 'real' wiccan because of your location.
And if the area you live in is highly religious and may be against 'other' religions or the 'occult' in general, you should not be judged because of others beliefs of ideology.
But aslong as you are happy with what you are doing, dont let others change it.
All of lifes little problems can be solved by beating the buggers on the head with a broom.
I've been reading a wonderful book of interviews with more than a dozen traditional elders, and a few elders' stories really speaks strongly to this:
From one elder:
I was finally able to locate Alex Sanders in Englad and wrote to him. He forwarded my letter to Mary Nesnick, an Alexandrian High Priestess in New York City. We corresponded for about a year before she would agree to meet with me and others she had been corresponding with. She flew to San Francisco to meet with all twelve or thirteen of us who flew in from different areas of the country at our own expense....The questions were "grilling" and I really didn't think any of us would pass muster. In the end, she sent most of them home..."
And from another:
In the sixties and seventies it was difficult to make a good contact for yourself. It wasn't a matter of just buzzing down to your local metaphysical store and being served up whatever you wanted. But serious-minded people found each other anyway. A magical search took place and people found the teachers they needed. And because it took that search and effort, and that determination to make contact, I think that people had better contacts for themselves. They often had to travel long distances to make contact. Everyone in Maryland who was traditionally initiated had traveled some distance, to New York, Connecticut, New Hampshire, or even down South. In the end, I think that they were the better for it.
Now that was 30-40 years ago when there were a lot fewer groups around. These days there are many, many more groups... but for those people who are truly called to that form of study, you do whatever it takes. Some of the students I studied with traveled more than two hours each way every week for classes. For me, the call to study included getting a divorce from my ex-husband and moving more than 1,000 miles to a new location where I had to get a new job to support myself while I prepared for study. And there's absolutely no guarantee of initiation... but that's how strong the calling of the gods tends to be. Would I fly 3,000 miles for the possibility of initiation at my own cost? Absolutely. No question whatsoever.
So for people who say that it's a matter of location that they are unable to study in a group, that's just an excuse. Be honest...it's because you don't want to study like that. There's nothing wrong with that, but being dishonest with yourself about your motivations will harm you as you develop in the Craft.
From one elder:
I was finally able to locate Alex Sanders in Englad and wrote to him. He forwarded my letter to Mary Nesnick, an Alexandrian High Priestess in New York City. We corresponded for about a year before she would agree to meet with me and others she had been corresponding with. She flew to San Francisco to meet with all twelve or thirteen of us who flew in from different areas of the country at our own expense....The questions were "grilling" and I really didn't think any of us would pass muster. In the end, she sent most of them home..."
And from another:
In the sixties and seventies it was difficult to make a good contact for yourself. It wasn't a matter of just buzzing down to your local metaphysical store and being served up whatever you wanted. But serious-minded people found each other anyway. A magical search took place and people found the teachers they needed. And because it took that search and effort, and that determination to make contact, I think that people had better contacts for themselves. They often had to travel long distances to make contact. Everyone in Maryland who was traditionally initiated had traveled some distance, to New York, Connecticut, New Hampshire, or even down South. In the end, I think that they were the better for it.
Now that was 30-40 years ago when there were a lot fewer groups around. These days there are many, many more groups... but for those people who are truly called to that form of study, you do whatever it takes. Some of the students I studied with traveled more than two hours each way every week for classes. For me, the call to study included getting a divorce from my ex-husband and moving more than 1,000 miles to a new location where I had to get a new job to support myself while I prepared for study. And there's absolutely no guarantee of initiation... but that's how strong the calling of the gods tends to be. Would I fly 3,000 miles for the possibility of initiation at my own cost? Absolutely. No question whatsoever.
So for people who say that it's a matter of location that they are unable to study in a group, that's just an excuse. Be honest...it's because you don't want to study like that. There's nothing wrong with that, but being dishonest with yourself about your motivations will harm you as you develop in the Craft.
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Moon_Stone
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Juliaki, I wouldn't jump up so quickly and state that location isn't a valid reason. Personally, I am and wish to continue to be solitary- but for those who say that location is an issue, I'm sure it really is-- and no where is it stated that to be Wiccan we need to drop everything (including husbands, children, jobs, what have you) to further our studies. If some people want to do this, then definitely, have at it. But I'm certain that there are some who don't feel that their beliefs demand this kind of sacrifice as it seems you are inferring.
I understand that the more traditional Wiccan practitioners have a set list of rules and regulations that must always be obeyed and honored, but not all facets of Wicca are this way. To simplify the heck out of this, dictionary.com says:
Wic·ca
1. A polytheistic Neo-Pagan nature religion inspired by various pre-Christian western European beliefs, whose central deity is a mother goddess and which includes the use of herbal magic and benign witchcraft.
2. A group or community of believers or followers of this religion.
-Where there is much more said about Christianity alone, with links to further explain the religion, etc. Now granted, this could be a result of a lack of widespread understanding of Wicca versus the very well explained and certain religion, Christianity. On the other hand, it could simply imply that there is not much more or less that needs to be defined in Wicca- it is up to the believer.
My opinion? This debate doesn't need to be. The majority of Wiccans now don't follow the old laws and definitely aren't going to spend time on finding new labels for those who don't follow another's specific path. We all share the same foundations, some more seriously than others, some more dedicated than others, some on a more defined path- I think it's simply the individual Wiccan's decision how far it is taken, and any time spent on labeling or waving a finger at “someone calling themselves Wiccan†is nothing more than wasted time.
~BB~
I understand that the more traditional Wiccan practitioners have a set list of rules and regulations that must always be obeyed and honored, but not all facets of Wicca are this way. To simplify the heck out of this, dictionary.com says:
Wic·ca
1. A polytheistic Neo-Pagan nature religion inspired by various pre-Christian western European beliefs, whose central deity is a mother goddess and which includes the use of herbal magic and benign witchcraft.
2. A group or community of believers or followers of this religion.
-Where there is much more said about Christianity alone, with links to further explain the religion, etc. Now granted, this could be a result of a lack of widespread understanding of Wicca versus the very well explained and certain religion, Christianity. On the other hand, it could simply imply that there is not much more or less that needs to be defined in Wicca- it is up to the believer.
My opinion? This debate doesn't need to be. The majority of Wiccans now don't follow the old laws and definitely aren't going to spend time on finding new labels for those who don't follow another's specific path. We all share the same foundations, some more seriously than others, some more dedicated than others, some on a more defined path- I think it's simply the individual Wiccan's decision how far it is taken, and any time spent on labeling or waving a finger at “someone calling themselves Wiccan†is nothing more than wasted time.
~BB~