DISCUSSION: What is Karma?

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hermitage
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DISCUSSION: What is Karma?

Post by hermitage »

This post was part of another thread about karma, and I have split it off so we can discuss the larger concept on its own. -- Xiao


Karma is greatly misunderstood in the west, for many it is understood to be something self-serving.
Both action and non-action generates karma. As long as you have a human body; every step you take, breath you breathe --you're generating more karma.
Karma - is a Sanskrit word, loosely meaning action. That's one definition. Kar means 'Do' or 'doer'.

If the intent of your question is, "if I don't send the info -- will I suffer a bad result" - truthfully told, as we learn from Vedic texts, where the concept of Karma was first revealed -- you just can't know what will result from you acting or not acting in this case.
And anyone who thinks they can tell you what karma you will either enjoy or suffer in the present or future is full of it.
The same goes for anyone trying to discuss another person's karma. They aren't god.

Please, just follow your heart and make a decision, don't worry about karma. We don't know what karma another person has.
All we can really speak for is the karma that has affected us.
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Re: Karma question

Post by Raven At Heart »

If you are an eastern practitioner, you should know better then anyone that your goal is to stop the flow of karma all together. In the west what people refer to karma is not the same thing, it's a combination of justice, fate and recoil in the form of mystical energy and life events. In the east where yogi and monk practice, it is to stop the flow of karma and achieve nirvana. They may use the same word but do not mean the same thing. There are many examples of old words gaining new meanings by different groups of people. A perfect example is warlock. In the 1950s it got a new meaning to mean oath breaker by Gardener. This was by no means what the word meant nor is there any root word for it. That does not change the fact it is now the modern root for the word instead of it's original Norse meaning, spirit caller. You can try to say we westerners do not understand the meaning all you want. Besides this, Americans are not westerners. According to geographical lovcation, we are New Worlders. Westerners are in Europe. Easterners are in Asia. We don't fit in in Europe any more then we would in Asia. Our magick here is mostly chaos too.
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Re: Karma question

Post by Kassandra »

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Wow, Raven At Heart, you went a lot of different directions in your post.

Hermitage's post about karma was actually very accurate, and you could stand to learn a lot by re-reading it.

In addition to "do," the "karm" Sanskrit root might also be interpreted as "work." If I mix certain amounts of flour, sugar, eggs and milk together, put the mixture on a cookie sheet in little pieces and bake them for a certain amount of time at a certain temperature, the karma of the situation is I end up with cookies because I did the work. If I complete a roster of certain designated courses at college campus over some years, and apply for the degree that corresponds with the courses, the karma of the situation is the college then confers me the degree because I did the work. There is no moral implication implied. It's more along the lines of cause and effect. I'm not sure where you got the idea that the "goal is to stop the flow of karma." lol That's basically like saying, "all life activities everywhere should come to a halt!" You wouldn't want that, would you?
hermitage wrote:As long as you have a human body; every step you take, breath you breathe --you're generating more karma....And anyone who thinks they can tell you what karma you will either enjoy or suffer in the present or future is full of it...Please, just follow your heart...

Indeed.



And it is Western culture that seems to have given the guilt-ridden, moral shading to the term, which is not in the original meaning of the concept as it's used in Asia. It seems in some people's minds the word karma could be used interchangeably with "retribution" or "vengeance." You see that a lot in people's spell work conceptions here, such as this: http://everythingunderthemoon.net/forum ... 30702.html, or this: http://everythingunderthemoon.net/forum ... 13946.html. They bandy that word about here quite a bit. But, the use is incorrect, as that is not the flavor of the word at all. It is actually a neutral concept. I just don't say anything any more (what's the use?) but Xiao has written a good post on this, can't remember where it's at at the moment, though.

Karma could even imply what people might think of as good and favorable results. You see this a lot with past life phenomena. For instance, someone from Asian culture might look at someone like Michael Jackson, who at four or five years old sang and danced with an uncanny maturity and level of talent, and say, "it was his karma that he is so capable in this life time." That is simply stating he "put in the work," so to speak, in past lives, and his dedication is immediately evident and reflected in this life, that's all. Some might find that favorable and "good," but someone from an Asian culture might look at as common sense, like, "well, what else would you expect?"

And as far as the East West thing, I think we all understand the general sense of the terms, as they are used widely. No sense in splitting hairs on that.


Thanks.



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Re: Karma question

Post by Raven At Heart »

Kassandra wrote:.



And as far as the East West thing, I think we all understand the general sense of the terms, they are used widely. No sense in splitting hairs on that.


Thanks.



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Sorry Kassandra, I hate that east vs west term. America does not fall under either and it is incredibly divisive. And all I was saying about karma, is words change meaning over time and in different cultures. In America alot of east and west beliefs are unified or atleast combined. American magick is mostly Chaos///ecleptic. And stopping the flow of karma is 1 of the core goals in Bhuddism. It's called Nirvanna
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Re: Karma question

Post by Kassandra »

Raven At Heart wrote:And stopping the flow of karma is 1 of the core goals in Bhuddism. It's called Nirvanna
You make is sound like a hemorrhage, lol.

But again, you're incorrect, Raven At Heart. I am going to give a brief response, and then I am quitting this topic, as I need to get on with my day.

Also, this discussion is going beyond the scope of the poster's original question, and should be continued either under an existing thread on a related topic (like Xiao's karma thread I mentioned), or a new thread could be started regarding Eastern religions in the Christiainty and Other Religious Faiths forum or something.

Any way, to attain nirvana, satori, samadhi, and whatever other names for a blissful state one uses, is not a "core goal" of Buddhism, nor of most other Asian religions for that matter. It's quite the opposite. Most teach not to practice a religion just to acquire its "fruits," and to release attachments like that. Again, I believe this kind of thinking to be an influence of Western religion, most-notably a Judeo-Christian mindset that "if I live a 'sinless' life, I will be rewarded by 'going to heaven.' " I've also seen some witchcraft paths express the same thing with the "Summerland" concept, which to my ears just sounds like Christianity 2.0, really (I don't think that originates in pagan thought, or if it did, it seems to me like it was tweaked somewhere along the way, perhaps to avoid persecution). You don't find this kind of simplistic thinking in most Asian religions, really. They look at your spiritual path as a "sadhana," a thing you happily do daily, because it's your duty, your place in the larger scheme of things, not to obtain a reward from some god. In fact, as regards Buddhism, Buddha himself was an atheist, didn't believe in a supreme god, nor in pantheons of gods and such.

The goddess Guanyin is a good example of why attaining nirvana is not a "core goal of Buddhism." She's revered as an enlightened being by Buddhists (and non-Buddhists alike) in Asia. Her whole archetype is of staying present in this world and being engaged in helping people. There is even a term in Buddhism for one not desiring to seek nirvana, which is being a "boddhisattva." Guanyin's example teaches us not to seek some blissful heavenly reward somewhere, but do good because it's the right thing to do, it is one's duty, one's sadhana. Another example we find in Hinduism. When Krishna chatted with Arjuna as detailed in the Gita, Krishna exhorted him not to get distracted with guna sensations of the here and now, but to only focus on doing his duty, playing his role, as everything else is impermanent and illusory, "everyone standing on this battle field is as good as dead any way" [paraphrasing]. Krishna at no time encouraged Arjuna to use seeking nirvana as a motivation for his actions, like it's some kind of paid vacation as a reward for being good.

Nirvana is only one of countless states of being written about in ancient Indian texts, called "shastri" in Sanskrit. Again, like that erroneous thinking Westeners have about "good/bad karma," none of these mental states of being are "bad" nor "good," not to be sought after, nor to be avoided, they just are what they are, neutral descriptions of mental/spiritual phenomena, that's all. At most a Buddhist might say it's not "skillful living" to do activities that cultivate a lower mental state, which is more along the lines of not acquiring unnecessary headaches for yourself in a "why not just avoid them?" kind of way. That's what I allude to in my Grimoire of EUTM Favs post when I group some posts until a title to do with "Living Skillfully," life hacks basically. In most Asian religions they would just consider people who don't choose to live skillfully (addicts, criminals, etc.) as maybe wanting/needing to learn other lessons in their earthly bodies in this lifetime. It's their choice. It's not a moral sin. Nirvana and other enlightened states are just by-products gained by someone who made a long term commitment to living skillfully, that's all.

Thanks.




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Re: DISCUSSION: What is Karma?

Post by Xiao Rong »

Separated the earlier posts out from another thread so we can discuss the larger concepts.

I once wrote a longer post on the subject: A Deeper Look at Karma -- was this what you were looking for, Kass?

@ Heritage: Yes, your definition of karma is much more in line with how I understand it. We can't fully know our own karma, much less others', and we are constantly generating karma. The only thing I might add to what you say is that only intentional actions count towards karma. If you accidentally step on a bug, that's not karma. If you were to intentionally step on a bug (maybe out of a malicious glee), then that will create karma.

@ Raven: It's certainly true that language and terminology evolves as it moves across cultures, but I guess what's interesting is that we already have a perfectly descriptive term for the Westernized version ("justice, fate and recoil in the form of mystical energy and life events", as you describe it): the Law of Return. In contrast, karma has a much longer history as a term and yields many deep and rich insights if we dig into its origins a bit (not to mention, it is still an important concept with different meanings in many religions that are still active).

I would disagree that the end goal of Buddhism (which is only one Eastern philosophy, by the way, and certainly not representative of all Eastern cultures!) is to stop the flow of karma. As Hermitage mentioned, karma simply means "action". Rather, the Buddha sought to end the cycle of reincarnation and suffering (samsara) through perfecting one's own karma by living virtuously. "Stopping" karma would mean to never do anything ever again, which is not what the Buddha intended at all! Like Kass mentioned, there were many beings (including the boddhisatvas, as well as the Buddha himself) who continued to be active and exist in the world even after having achieved Enlightenment.
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Re: DISCUSSION: What is Karma?

Post by Raven At Heart »

When I read books on bhuddism, it says the goal is to stop the flow of karma by seperating ones self from the desires and constraints of the world. In essense becoming immortal through nirvanna. This does not mean dying. That was the whole thing that turned me off of bhuddism. That was why I said what I said. that being said. This is gonna be my only post on this topic.
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Re: DISCUSSION: What is Karma?

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My understanding of karma is that it is similar to Newton's third largest of motion, with each action having an equal and opposite reaction. Although I find karma to be more fluid in its reaction than what is found in the physical world. The brief study that I did of Buddhism way back in high school, indicated a desire not to stop karma, but to move beyond the need for it. It brings to my mind, some of the races encountered by the USS Enterprise in her original 5 year mission. Some of those races had moved beyond the need for corporeal bodies. Then we have what have been termed in some circles, Ascended Masters. Beings who have moved beyond the need for karma and reincarnation, but who return voluntarily to teach. Sort of a cosmic Welcome Back Kotter. I'm really tired today, so my brain is falling back on old TV shows for references. I'm showing my age in the process. Anyway, we really don't know what another person's karma is. Maybe we should remember the adage "eyes on your own paper."

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Re: DISCUSSION: What is Karma?

Post by Raven At Heart »

SnowCat wrote:My understanding of karma is that it is similar to Newton's third largest of motion, with each action having an equal and opposite reaction. Although I find karma to be more fluid in its reaction than what is found in the physical world. The brief study that I did of Buddhism way back in high school, indicated a desire not to stop karma, but to move beyond the need for it. It brings to my mind, some of the races encountered by the USS Enterprise in her original 5 year mission. Some of those races had moved beyond the need for corporeal bodies. Then we have what have been termed in some circles, Ascended Masters. Beings who have moved beyond the need for karma and reincarnation, but who return voluntarily to teach. Sort of a cosmic Welcome Back Kotter. I'm really tired today, so my brain is falling back on old TV shows for references. I'm showing my age in the process. Anyway, we really don't know what another person's karma is. Maybe we should remember the adage "eyes on your own paper."

Snow
Quoting the original star trek is not showing age. Even 14 year olds have seen the series cover to cover. It's a cult classic.
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Re: DISCUSSION: What is Karma?

Post by SnowCat »

I remember watching all the episodes when they were first run. We were all fascinated by "the guy with the pointed ears.".

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Re: DISCUSSION: What is Karma?

Post by hermitage »

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Re: DISCUSSION: What is Karma?

Post by Kassandra »

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Hi guys. I veered off this topic toward Sanskrit, and started a thread on that here, if anyone's interested: http://everythingunderthemoon.net/forum ... 33872.html


Thanks.




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Re: DISCUSSION: What is Karma?

Post by Kassandra »

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Oh my god, today is just not my day with this message board. Hermitage, I tried to just copy and paste what you wrote so I could respond to it in the new thread on Sanskrit, and instead cut and pasted, then couldn't recover the original text by "back page"ing for it. It's gone. You wrote such nice words to Xiao and Raven At Heart. Sorry guys, I blew it. I've "almost" done that many times over the years, but not actually deleted a post. This was a first. My bad. :oops:

Hermitage had made some commentaries to Xiao about samsara, if I remember correctly, and some commentary to Raven about word etymologies, I think. Oh!! I feel really sh***y right now. What an air head I am. :cry:



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Re: DISCUSSION: What is Karma?

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Anybody have an air compressor? It seems that Kassandra needs a refill. :flyingwitch:

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Re: DISCUSSION: What is Karma?

Post by Kassandra »

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I need something....a Christian would probably say I need Jesus, maybe they're right, lol.



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