I have a thought. I'm not saying it's true or false, just something i've ben thinking in different ways while discovering new things, leading to this.
The christian belief system (which I think is utterly hell itself)has it's own heaven and hell. But seeing how the lower astral and the upper astral are "heaven and hell" because of the energy of EVERYONE'S thoughts being organized in their place, couldn't the christian religion's "heaven and hell" and the religion itself evolve from the witch's beliefs? And because of the thoughts of hate, sadness, ect. be categorized into the lower astral and "happier" thoughts be in the upper astral, couldn't christianity basically be a "brainwash" based on astral beliefs?
Just the one thought I was looking to find after lots of thinking and studying. Not very good and mere imposibility of trying to understand I guess, but just a little thought I decided to share with you guys.
I suppose the first thing we need to do is define what you're calling the "witch's" beliefs.
Witchcraft as we know it today is a modern invention, and so therefore could not have had an impact on Christian beliefs during it's early stages.
This is not to say that there were not other "pagan" religions at that time, though I think they'd be offended by the term, as it meant something entirely different in those days (That would be another discussion entirely). Christianity most certainly did not evolve in a vacuum though, and it incorporated ideas from all over the middle east, though it's primary influences were Jewish- for obvious reasons, if you've ever read the Bible.
Now, as I've pointed out in other posts, the Jewish system of belief really has an odd evolution. When you take a close study of the Old Testament and the Torah, it's still possible to find traces of the old polytheistic religion that it was based on. Eventually though, it became the monotheistic religion that we see today, for better or for worse. Still, though, it's ideas of heaven and hell were very different from what the Christians believe in, and they -still- have huge points of divergence. For example, Jewish culture did not believe in heaven or hell as a place to go in the afterlife- Once you were dead, you were dead. Period. End of story. You are dead, do not pass go, do not collect two hundred dollars, and don't worry about the pearly gates cause you wouldn't have seen them anyways. Those who believed in a resurrection did not believe in a spiritual resurrection- it was to be a bodily resurrection, and the kingdom of God was to be one, very literally, here on Earth.
So, how did the Christians end up with their beliefs in Heaven and Hell as an actual afterlife, when it's an almost complete departure from the beliefs of their mother religion?
Here's where I get to stop being a know it all... Because I honestly don't know. I can take some pretty good guesses, though.
The first place to look is the obvious- Individual sects within Judaism. Generally speaking, if you hear about someone running around in white robes in the Gospels or other early portions of the New Testament, it's likely that they are a member of the Essene sect. They were small, but there's a growing trend in modern scholarship that believes that Jesus spent some time learning from them. Given what he preached, and some of their beliefs, this is not terribly shocking.
There was evolutionary trend in the Jewish Essene sect that espoused some decidedly odd beliefs that we may recognize today in Christian belief (I.E.: immortality of the soul, divine retribution for sins, a spiritual (as opposed to physical) resurrection, etc.). Looking at this, it's unsurprising that Jesus would have taught what he did, or that Christians would hold some of the beliefs that they do.
Another thing to consider is the Babylonian influence on Jewish thought at the time. Before the Babylonian Exile, Satan was treated, not as the demonic influence we see today, but as a respected member of God's court who brought people closer to God through trial and tribulation. When the Exile ended, the Jews brought with them a new version of Satan, who was influenced by the local god Ahriman. In order to deal with the influx of new ideas, the Jewish world view had to change- In order for the idea to work, there had to be an afterlife. This was the first major change. Since the Jews did not have any real basis for such a system in their own beliefs, they borrowed wholesale from the Zoroastrians, who they'd taken the idea of the new and improved Satan from in the -first- place.
So, you have this guy who comes from a Jewish household. All things considered, he probably grew up in a household that carried beliefs carried over from the Exile, or he wouldn't have been preaching what he did. You mix this with the things he learned from the Essenes... and Viola! You have the Gospels.
Whew! >.< Of course, these are only a few of the ideas that were taken, but you can see, from this basis, how it would easily lead to the idea of heaven/hell as we have it today in Christian thought. No doubt someone else has better insight into early Christian beliefs and their evolution than I do, so now would be the time for one of them to step up and put in their nickel.
Sorry for wearing out your eyes. ^________^
~St. Makupuff the Awesome~
"The human race will begin solving it's problems on the day that it ceases taking itself so seriously." – Malaclypse the Younger
The Hell Law says that Hell is reserved exclusively for them that believe in it.
Further, the lowest Rung in Hell is reserved for them that believe in it on the supposition that they'll go there if they don't.
-Holy Book of Truth; The Gospel According to Fred, 3:1 (Principia Discordia)
I suppose the first thing we need to do is define what you're calling the "witch's" beliefs
What I meant by that is what kind of stuff I have found on the internet and the few things i've found of witchcraft's origins. I know i've only ben studying for about 7 months and only know the ways of christianity I was taught (I used to be a christian freak, and my family members are all christians) and wicca.
My beliefs are very confusing to explain. I guess all the studies I do of so many topics and that feeling of
"oh, I must read about this and i'll get back to this topic later"
type of thing. But I have kept on the topic of astral projection for quiet a long time. Most sites i've ben to about the lower astral and upper astral consider it heaven and hell, but everyone believes different things.
Thanks for the explaination makbawehuh, it was a good help.
You might want to take a long look at anyone who considers the astral planes to be corresponded with heaven or hell directly, because really, it has very little to do with most pagan beliefs, from what I've seen.
Portion five of the Discordian Pentabarf forbids any Discordian from believing what he or she reads. Since this is written in a Holy Book... yeah. Interesting times.
Point being, I think it is wise advice when not taken to extremes, especially on the internet. As you research sites you will eventually get a feel for what is "normal" and what is not.
I don't know where you've been going, but I'd say to take everything with a grain of salt until you've dealt with such things yourself. This from someone who has -incredibly- limited experience on the astral plane, of course. >.<
And of course, questions are always welcome. Do we even have a section of the board that deals specifically with the astral? I'm sure there is, I just don't frequent it...
~St. Makupuff the Awesome~
"The human race will begin solving it's problems on the day that it ceases taking itself so seriously." – Malaclypse the Younger
The Hell Law says that Hell is reserved exclusively for them that believe in it.
Further, the lowest Rung in Hell is reserved for them that believe in it on the supposition that they'll go there if they don't.
-Holy Book of Truth; The Gospel According to Fred, 3:1 (Principia Discordia)
This weekend I went to a friend's house. Her brother has two friends who are basically "high" in this type of thing. But where i'm getting at is he told me some things I really needed to know. (those things would give a better explaination I really wish I could share, but he wanted everything we talked about to be kept between us. (the one who was gifted with knowledge will be F and the other one will be T) How F knew more than anyone could ever know he told me some things.
So me and him talked for hours about different subjects related to spirituality and i've learned alot within that timeing. My beliefs have changed from what I've learned. I guess i'll keep more of a look-out on what cites I visit, seeing how I started to grow lazy with that.
I have another question:
What is the key of salem? My curiosity has ben growing and I feel I need to know I would never mess with it i'm just curious to know. And what really is the door to the spiritual realm?
Another reminder that in just one weekend (yes, weird what knowledge can do to you) my beliefs have totally changed. I guess i'm so much of a beginner in this path I might as well forget everything I thought I knew.
If i were to explain what we talked about, this post really would have mad alot more sense, though i guess it is a bit kiddish to keep a secret from people over a forum I will most likely never meet in person, but no matter what type of situation, I never tell secrets
Isn't the key of Salem another World of Warcraft treasure items?
The mind is a window to the universe, but for many the window is closed
Truth is unique, it seldom has meaning for anyone other than the one who speaks it.
My opinion is my own. I am willing to share it, though you are not required to accept it.
Kelly wrote:This weekend I went to a friend's house. Her brother has two friends who are basically "high" in this type of thing. But where i'm getting at is he told me some things I really needed to know. (those things would give a better explaination I really wish I could share, but he wanted everything we talked about to be kept between us.
Who were the "things" about?
You or him?
If they're about you then you can tell whoever you want. If they were about him then....why?
I think you're getting confused with the Key of Solomon, correct me if I'm wrong.
The key of Solomon is a big old spell book, but I've never heard of the key of Salem.
I think you're getting confused with the Key of Solomon, correct me if I'm wrong.
YES! YES YES YES! I knew it was something that started with an S but i just forgot what it was. Thank you!
Well, it was about him. If it was about me, I would more than ever tell. Which I will. (Im not expecting anyone to beleive me, therfore because it sounds a bit, silly)
Okay. F was "gifted" with all knowledge with this type of stuff so she knows basically everything anyone can know. T has once gained access to the key of solomon, but which I was told it was the thing (i forgot what) that like controlled all the realms. That's just what I was told. Please correct me if i'm wrong
He also told me that T had shadows surrounding his house because they want something from him(dont know what though) and he had an energy barrier around it so they can't get in very well. But her brother (the one who was telling me this, who we will call C) called unto them to come to him because he wanted to see for himself and one got into one of T's dogs and attacked him for about 15 minutes and it didnt hurt him. (we guessed because of his gift of strength, not any normal stuff but like oddly strong. I would get into the story when it happened but thay would probably take a long time to type)
Please, whereever im wrong at what I just explained please correct me. I'm just a beginner, I don't know much.
Who were the "things" about?
The "things" were just about spirituality and i'm one of the few people he has told his beleifs to. He's not really open about it, which I guess is why he didn't want anyone to know. But the things F knows nobody exept her is allowed to know. I wasn't told much of anything of that, since F didn't tell C anymuch about it.
If I remember right, our World Religions professor thought it quite possible that Christian beliefs about the afterlife came from Zoroastrianism, which teaches a judgment, heaven/hell scenario, wheras, as one pointed out, most Jewish groups assumed that death meant "game over."
I believe there is no reincarnation, thats my own belief.
We meerly transit from physical form (our shell) into spirit, an energy, Ka, our soul?
We are aware of our actions in this form, our own conscience and are very aware of the before in the physical shell of our actions.
If we lead good lives we are in no hell in this transition of eternal void.
If we lead bad lives we are forever guilty, angry, negative in this eternal void.
But we are still strongly connected to the physical plane of life. Were we can connect and communicate with the living. Thus we have chances of sending unfinished business to lay with the help of the living.
I believe its not only the dead that help the living, the favour is returned.
Thats my own belief anyway.
I wanted to start this out with one thought that always pops in my head when people mention how old Wicca or Modern Witchcraft is when making a point. Basically, our practices may be new and differ from ages ago but our deities have weathered the eons to be welcomed again.
From my own studies it is more than obvious that Christianity borrowed/plagiarized the worship of Mithra wholesale to create Jesus Christ. As for the Christian version of Hell - most modern believers rely on Dante's Divine Comedy to inform their beliefs of what it is and how it functions - the Bible itself being pretty sketchy on description. [written 1308-1321] His epic poem has somehow found its way into the belief system with the '7 deadly sins'often mis-interpreted as part of the Bible as well.
Heaven and Hell, as they exist in most Christian and Christian influenced minds today, are to me inventions - fabrications used in an effort to control one's flock/followers. IMO.
Christianity isn't the only religion(as previously stated) as having a heaven and hell.
I personally think, that after you die, whatever you believe happens, will happen. I believe everything we encounter is a mental projection(it's hard to explain really), so I think that there is a sort of inbetween plane(not quite astral) in which we exhibit a kind of dream state. In which you see what you believe you'll see, which means if you believe you'll go to hell. You will, you sent yourself to hell and it will look just as you imagined it. Same with heaven. I don't believe in either concept after death, but I do believe in the forest(which is hard to explain. I had a dream about the crossing over plane, I encounter it a lot, so I remember bits and pieces). But considering the fact that energy changes into whatever you "think", it would make more sense to me if the passing period was the same. I do believe you have a choice to reincarnate if you desire, but you have a short time to decide. I also believe you can choose to 'disperse' your soul and then you become part of everything.
In this sense I think all religions are correct, because it depends on the individual, there isn't a universal truth.
I do believe that if you believe in reincarnation, you see your lives. It's hard to explain but there is a path and everything is shimmering and moving at once, with all color. And you'll see the different figures of you on either side. In a line. And they'll continue to move and shimmer, so you cannot fully tell their appearance. And within all their shimmering-ness is the story of the life you lead. Then at the end, you hear a voice. Which is either you, or a God/Goddess. Depending on your beliefs.
There are a lot of similarities between Christianity and Paganism. Because they wanted to convert so many of us, and there is speculation as to whether Jesus was simply a construct of various Pagan mythologies into one.
The concept of Heaven and Hell as final judgment came in from a Persian religion called Zoroastrian. If your soul is too heavy with badness/sin, then you fall off the bridge and burn until the evil is burnt out of you and you can continue on to heaven.
Christianity, Judaism, Islam, and other Arabic religions are all closely tied together. Which is why the whole 'Christianity vs the Middle East' mindset is ironically pitiful. That is not much different than Baptists vs Methodists or the 4th grade vs the 5th grade.
I lean towards the European beliefs. Look at a site like <a href="http://www.asatru.org/">Astaru</a> for an idea the differences between European and Arabic ancient religions.
I've never needed the idea of fire and brimstone to make me a good person. The idea seems childish. My life is the experience of which it is. When it is all over, I will look over it and see what of my choices were vice and which were right. There might be a few things which I see as absolute morals, I do not see there being any concrete set of laws set aside stating each and every thing that is 'bad' and 'good'.
"Whoever undertakes to set himself up as judge in the field of truth and knowledge is shipwrecked by the laughter of the Gods." -Einstein
There are always facts, the best most of us can do is try to continuously adjust our opinions to become closer to those facts. For that, there is Science and Philosophy. One to argue facts and one to argue opinions. The result: The big bang is some sort of sexual innuendo resulting from your subconscious.
I would never mess with it i'm just curious to know. And what really is the door to the spiritual realm?
I guess i'm so much of a beginner in this path I might as well forget everything I thought I knew. 
