Difference between Wicca & Paganism

[MoonLightCoven]

First i would like to state that my friend did say paganism is dark and that i shouldnt go into that specific area of religion but i dont see why

and what is the difference why cant u call a wiccan a pagan ?

[Xiao Rong]

Valmont is right - Wiccans fall under the general category of Paganism (which includes a lot of other groups), but not all Pagans are Wiccans.

[Lillady]

Paganism represents a wide variety of traditions that emphasize reverence for nature and a revival of ancient polytheistic and animistic religious practices. Some modern forms of Paganism have their roots in 19th century C.E. European nationalism, but most contemporary Pagan groups trace their immediate organizational roots to the 1960s, and have an emphasis on archetypal psychology and a spiritual interest in nature. Paganism is not a traditional religion per se because it does not have any official doctrine, but it does have some common characteristics joining the great variety of traditions. One of the common beliefs is the divine presence in nature and the reverence of the natural order in life. Spiritual growth is related to the cycles of the Earth and great emphasis is placed on ecological concerns. Monotheism is almost universally rejected within Paganism and most Pagan traditions are particularly interested in the revival of ancient polytheist religious traditions including the Norse and Celtic traditions. Many Pagan traditions are intentionally reconstructionist in that they aim to revive many of the lost rituals of the ancient traditions, including holy days and seasonal celebrations. Besides Nature, many Pagans also worship a variety of gods and goddesses, including spirits which can represent national and local heroes as well as deceased family members. In this sense, many Pagans try to honor their ancestry and ancestors. Some Pagan traditions include ritual magic, but this practice is not universal.

[Echo_of_shadows]

Whether or not a Wiccan can be called a Pagan depends on what definition of Pagan is being used. The modern use of the word Pagan refers to someone who practices one of the religions or beliefs systems that aren't one of the mainstream religions. Wicca, Shamanism, Druidism, etc. fall into this category. In this case, yes, Wiccans can be considered Pagan. However, there is another definition of what a Pagan is. Pagan derived from the Latin word paganus, which means "country dweller." The country dwellers were often those who lived too far from main cities to easily assimilate into Christianity when it first began to spread. At some point, Pagan became a derogatory term equivalent to "yokel" and "bumpkin." I don't think the word Pagan is used in that manner any more.

[MoonLightCoven]

thank you all who replied and to me id rather be called wiccan then pagan.

[loona wynd]

First i would like to state that my friend did say paganism is dark and that i shouldnt go into that specific area of religion but i dont see why

and what is the difference why cant u call a wiccan a pagan ?

A Pagan is one who is not of the Abrahamic faiths (Jewish, Christian, or Islamic). All types of religious witches that follow any tradition or worship any Gods or spirit not of those three faiths is a Pagan. Other people use pagan to mean a member of a modern version of ancient polytheistic religions. However that still removes quite a few traditions and practices.

Wicca is a modern Duo-theistic pagan religion. There are other witchcults or religious versions of witchcraft as well that fit into this category. Wicca is simply one type of pagan religion-religious witchcraft. There are others out there. Germanic witchcraft, Strega, Dianic, ect. These are all religious forms of witchcraft.

[Xiao Rong]

A Pagan is one who is not of the Abrahamic faiths (Jewish, Christian, or Islamic). All types of religious witches that follow any tradition or worship any Gods or spirit not of those three faiths is a Pagan. Other people use pagan to mean a member of a modern version of ancient polytheistic religions. However that still removes quite a few traditions and practices.

Pagan as "not of Abrahamaic faith" may be an older definition of Pagan, and indeed I have heard some conservatives call anything not Christian "Pagan". But under that definition, where does Hinduism or Buddhism fall? They might be "Pagan" in the sense they are not Abrahamaic, but they don't share very many similarities with Paganism as I know it. (and, of course, there are Christo-Pagans and the like).

I think one key thing is self-identification as a Pagan. There are people in my family who practice Chinese folk religion, but they would never consider themselves to be Pagans, either in the sense of the modern Pagan movement or defining themselves with relation to Abrahamaic religions. It's just a thing they do; even the name "Chinese folk religion" is a largely academic distinction that is meaningless to them. Whereas I borrow elements of Chinese folk religion, but in my opinion what makes me a Pagan is that I choose to call myself a Pagan. I would also strongly doubt that Buddhists or Hindus would call themselves a Pagan, and it seems silly to foist that identity on them simply because they are not Abrahamaic.

[Firebird]

I identify with being a Pagan first, and more specifically a Wiccan who is a Witch. However not all Wiccans are witches and not all Witches are Wiccan. (how's that to confuse the issue!?)

Wicca is a modern Duo-theistic pagan religion.

I would say Wicca CAN be a duo-theistic, but I wouldn't place all Wiccans in that category. While it is true many Wiccans revere the divine aspect of woman and the divine aspect of man, many more of them are poly-theistic, and now we have Christian Wiccans, who I would imagine are monotheistic, and if they still identify with being Christian, then I don't think they would be considered a Pagan.
Pagan is an overall term that addresses anyone who does not fall within the Abrahamic 3.
Wiccan is a little more grey and to me Wicca celebrates the turning of the wheel that does not necessarily need to be attached to religion of any kind. It counts 8 points in our calendar year that defines the cycle of life from birth to death to re-birth.
BB Firebird

[loona wynd]

Pagan as "not of Abrahamaic faith" may be an older definition of Pagan, and indeed I have heard some conservatives call anything not Christian "Pagan".

Actually it's the dictionary definition. It's the second and fith definitions on dictionary.com:

1.
one of a people or community observing a polytheistic religion, as the ancient Romans and Greeks. Synonyms: polytheist.
2.
a person who is not a Christian, Jew, or Muslim. Synonyms: heathen, gentile; idolator; nonbeliever.
3.
an irreligious or hedonistic person.
4.
a person deemed savage or uncivilized and morally deficient.
adjective
5.
pertaining to the worship or worshipers of any religion that is neither Christian, Jewish, nor Muslim. Synonyms: heathen, heathenish, idolatrous, polytheistic. Antonyms: Christian, Jewish, Muslim, monotheistic.
6.
of, pertaining to, or characteristic of pagans.
7.
irreligious or hedonistic. Synonyms: unbelieving, godless, atheistic, agnostic; impious, profane, sacrilegious, unholy, ungodly. Antonyms: religious, pious, devout.
8.
of a person deemed backward, savage, or uncivilized or morally or spiritually stunted. Synonyms: primitive, uncultivated, uncultured, heathenish, barbaric, barbarous, philistine. Antonyms: civilized, cultivated, cultured, urbane.

If you noticed I also included the first definition of Pagan in my post. Those are the most common definitions of Pagan I have come across. If you are asking what a word means or has for meanings look it up in the dictionary. While there are many out there trying to claim that Pagan is a specific religion, look at the definition of the term. It fits hundreds of religions out there.

But under that definition, where does Hinduism or Buddhism fall? They might be "Pagan" in the sense they are not Abrahamaic, but they don't share very many similarities with Paganism as I know it.

Paganism isn't a religion though. Yes there are people using it to basically mean any earth or nature based religion or spirituality but that is not what the word means. Any nature based religion would be a Pagan religion, but not all pagan religions are nature based. Many of them aren't actually.

One other definition I have seen says non Dharmic faiths are Pagan as well. That would be Hinduism, Buddhism, Taoism, and Shintoism to name a few. Some of these are polytheistic which also fits the dictionary definition of Pagan. If you go by the dictionary then those faiths are Pagan. If you go by the non Abrahamaic and non Dharmic defition of Pagan then they aren't Pagan.

In the English language by dictionary definition they are Pagan religions though.

(and, of course, there are Christo-Pagans and the like).

Christio-paganism is an interesting concept. Honestly it doesn't work. Looking at what defines a Pagan religion, one of the key concepts is not following Christianity. So one can't be a Christio-Pagan in that respect. One can though still believe in Jesus as the son of a specific God and respect his teachings (Christianity) and believe that his father or that specific God does exist while worshiping other Gods. If that is what you mean by a Christio-Pagan than it works. If you mean some one who worships other Gods, Jesus, and his father than it doesn't work.

One can believe in Gods that they don't worship. Just because I don't worship a certain God doesn't mean I can't believe in them. Ultimately that is what true polytheism would be. The belief in many Gods. you don't have to worship a god to believe in them. You can simply believe they exist and acknowledge their existence.

I think one key thing is self-identification as a Pagan. There are people in my family who practice Chinese folk religion, but they would never consider themselves to be Pagans, either in the sense of the modern Pagan movement or defining themselves with relation to Abrahamaic religions. It's just a thing they do; even the name "Chinese folk religion" is a largely academic distinction that is meaningless to them.

Well it's really important to know that in ancient times and cultures there wasn't really a word for religion or beliefs. It was something that simply was. It was well known and acknowledged that other cultures had otherways of doing things and may have other Gods or spirits. It didn't matter what they were called. It simply was a part of life. It was really with the rise of monotheism as a the main religious concept that ideas of what religion is was developed. Does that make sense? What I'm saying is that I can sort of understand where your family members are coming from.

Whereas I borrow elements of Chinese folk religion, but in my opinion what makes me a Pagan is that I choose to call myself a Pagan. I would also strongly doubt that Buddhists or Hindus would call themselves a Pagan, and it seems silly to foist that identity on them simply because they are not Abrahamaic.

And while they may not adopt that identity one can't argue what is in the dictionary. If they choose not to label themselves personally as Pagan that's fine. However they should at least understand that in the dictionary they are. Many I have met acknowledge that part and still choose not to say pagan. Which is fine.

[loona wynd]

I identify with being a Pagan first, and more specifically a Wiccan who is a Witch. However not all Wiccans are witches and not all Witches are Wiccan. (how's that to confuse the issue!?)

Actually all Wiccans are Witches. Not all Witches are Wiccan. Wicca is a religion of witchcraft. The rites and rituals of Wicca use witchcraft in their practice. The invocations and evocations in the circle casting are witchcraft. The God and Goddess of Wicca are a God and Goddess of Witchcraft. One can not be Wiccan and not be a witch.
[quote="firebirdflys"
I would say Wicca CAN be a duo-theistic, but I wouldn't place all Wiccans in that category. [/quote]Again that is not true. All forms of Wicca have a God and a Goddess. If it does not have a God and Goddess it is not Wicca. It may be a form of religious witchcraft but it is not Wicca. Wiccan ritual and myth is based around the pairing of a Goddess and a God.

While it is true many Wiccans revere the divine aspect of woman and the divine aspect of man, many more of them are poly-theistic,

Thats fine. Many Wiccans I know have a separate practice for other Gods. Wicca has a specific God and Goddess paradigm. If one is a polytheist and worships other gods outside of the Wiccan God and Goddess then they can do so. It is however a separate practice as they are separate Gods. The only other way I see polytheism working in this view is if they hold the view that all Gods are one God and all Goddesses one Goddess. This form and view of polytheism is often refered to as soft polytheism.[quote="firebirdflys" and now we have Christian Wiccans, who I would imagine are monotheistic, and if they still identify with being Christian, then I don't think they would be considered a Pagan.[/quote]Christian Wicca can not exist. Christian witchcraft yes. Christian Wicca no, not at least without bastardizing both religions. One is monotheistic and the other duo-theistic. They can not really exist side by side.

Pagan is an overall term that addresses anyone who does not fall within the Abrahamic 3.

This is true.

Wiccan is a little more grey and to me Wicca celebrates the turning of the wheel that does not necessarily need to be attached to religion of any kind. It counts 8 points in our calendar year that defines the cycle of life from birth to death to re-birth.
BB Firebird

Actually that's not true. Wicca is a religion. Witchcraft is a craft that can be applied to any religion or philosophy. Wicca's sabbats while they do tell the tale of the cycle does so through a God and Goddess. Wicca is a fertility religion (traditional) or a nature religion (eclectic and solitary style). Both of these share the 8 sabbats and the concept of a God and a Goddess for creation and life. The sabbats tell the story of the God through the year. Imbolc he is a child recently born and exploring. Ostara he is still a child but becoming stronger and starting to understand his role. Beltaine the God and Goddess mate so that he ensures that the God will be born again, this also ensure fertility of the land. Litha marks the pinnacle of the Gods strength. The fields are in full bloom and food is basically plentiful for all. Ludnash or Lammas marks the sacrifice of the God to ensure the future fertility. It is the first grain harvest. Mabon is where the God switches from the lord of the fields to the lord of the animals. The second harvest. Samhain is the God traveling in the underworld to be reborn. Yule is the birth or return of the sun. Bringing us back to Imbolc where he is born physically as a child. That is the basic mythos of Wicca. The Goddess is his mother, companion, and lover. She is there in maiden, mother, and crone at all times.

[Firebird]

Actually all Wiccans are Witches. Not all Wiccans are Witches.

helllooooooo?

Loona I am not here to argue, I would suggest you read the posts carefully and keep an open mind, I wasn't on board with the whole Christian Wicca thing originally, but hey..to each his own.
And to say some one is right or wrong,... or it is all this way or all that way, is very black and white thinking.

Actually that's not true. Wicca is a religion.

I never suggested it was not a religion, I have found over time it didn't have to have religion attached to it. Take it or leave it.
BB, FF

[loona wynd]

Actually all Wiccans are Witches. Not all Wiccans are Witches.

helllooooooo?

Gah! I didn't catch that in my review of the post before I posted it. I edited it now to read what I was trying to say. All Wiccans are Witches not all Witches are Wiccan. I'm a non Wiccan religious witch.

Loona I am not here to argue

So why do you belong to discussion forums if not to discuss and debate points of views? Discussions aren't the same are arguments. Debates aren't necessarily arguments.,

I would suggest you read the posts carefully and keep an open mind

I do have an open mind. I'm just not so open minded that my brain is mush and easily swayed. I listen to the arguments. I listen to the discussions. I also have studied religious concepts and theology in both contexts.

, I wasn't on board with the whole Christian Wicca thing originally, but hey..to each his own.

Christian Wicca I am against. Christian Witchcraft I'm not against. Some things can't be mixed. Religiously those two can't be mixed. I tried it. neither the Goddess nor Yaweh liked it. They never left my side because of it, but they weren't pleased with it either.

SilverRavenWolf in her book Teen Witch gives elaborate ways that the two can work together. For many years that was my path and my practice. It works great as an introduction and as a tool for converting and changing worldviews. It can be a useful way to transition from one path to another.

As I said for years it was my path. For my teen years. The first 5 years of my practice were like this. It didn't last long though. I realized eventually that I was being true to neither religion with trying to have both Wicca and Christianity together. I knew that witchcraft could work together but the religious worship didn't work.

And to say some one is right or wrong,... or it is all this way or all that way, is very black and white thinking.

Some things on theological and mythological levels cant mix. Some things can. Some religions are based more on practice rather than beliefs. Wicca is a religion based on practices and experiences (the mysteries) rather than beliefs. Christianity is a religion of beliefs.

I'm not saying that there can't be influences from one faith continued on. I believe in Jesus as the Son of a God. I still believe in Yaweh/Jehova/Allah I just don't worship them. I still believe that Jesus had wonderful teachings and was a wise man. I believe in him as a prophet and as a demi-god. I also always saw the holy trinity as separate beings and still do. I still celebrate Christmas and Easter for what they mean to them and because of my family. So yes there can still be influences. It doesn't mean that you are practicing both religions at the same time though.

I never suggested it was not a religion, I have found over time it didn't have to have religion attached to it. Take it or leave it.
BB, FF

That statement to me seems to contradict itself. Can you please clarify what you mean by that?

[Xiao Rong]

Loona Wynd:

If you noticed I also included the first definition of Pagan in my post. Those are the most common definitions of Pagan I have come across. If you are asking what a word means or has for meanings look it up in the dictionary. While there are many out there trying to claim that Pagan is a specific religion, look at the definition of the term. It fits hundreds of religions out there.

As a matter of fact, I did know what a dictionary is, thanks.

First of all, simply because the dictionary says that this is what it means does not always mean that is a useful or meaningful definition for every context. I said what I said not because I do not know that Pagan means non-Abrahamaic, but because I don't think it meaningful or useful to define people by "Abrahamic" and "non-Abrahamaic", the latter of which includes everything from atheists, Hindus, Buddhists, agnostics, people who have never heard of Christianity, people who practice indigenous religions, and people who don't care about religion one way or another. I know some people who DO use it this way (e.g. conservative Christians who say things like using birth control will make America a pagan, or non-Christian society), but I would argue that it is not a good use of the word "pagan" and one that we should strongly contest.

Second of all, telling me how to use a dictionary seems to me very much like a grammar school rhetorical tactic. I am writing to you like an equal; I would appreciate if you would afford me the same respect and avoid being quite so condescending.

Christio-paganism is an interesting concept. Honestly it doesn't work. Looking at what defines a Pagan religion, one of the key concepts is not following Christianity. So one can't be a Christio-Pagan in that respect. One can though still believe in Jesus as the son of a specific God and respect his teachings (Christianity) and believe that his father or that specific God does exist while worshiping other Gods. If that is what you mean by a Christio-Pagan than it works. If you mean some one who worships other Gods, Jesus, and his father than it doesn't work.

We have had this discussion over whether Christianity and Paganism can intersect before elsewhere on this forum. But again, I do not think it is your place to say that Christian paganism "just can't work." It seems to me that you have a serious issue with respecting other people's self-identification. You are welcome to say that Christian paganism does not make sense for you, but there are absolutely people for whom Christian paganism is spiritually fulfilling. By flat out saying that Christian paganism "just doesn't work", you are devaluing and disrespecting the opinions of those (many of whom are members on this forum) who do identify as Christian pagans or Christian Wiccans. That's not cool.

And while they may not adopt that identity one can't argue what is in the dictionary.

Again with the dictionary! Actually, people argue with the dictionary all the time. Language is constantly changing and evolving; I do not believe the dictionary to be the final arbiter on what a word can mean when the dictionary itself changes every year in order to reflect changes in language.

[Isis3Anubis]

I myself find it easier to call myself Wiccan to non-magickal people and Egyptian pagan to others. As a solitary, I've read in other forums that it is bad form to call yourself a Wicca unless you are initiated into a coven. I myself believe in panemtheism which everything in the universe, gods included, are part of one whole entity which encompasses everything in the universe. I believe in many gods and goddesses but they are part of the whole universe as one source such as Jung's Collective Unconscious. So I believe Christian witches if they respect the Celtic Wheel of the year and practice homage to the gods can be similar to Wiccans. Names are just neat categories anyway.

[Firebird]

With regards to the OP I wish not to side line with conflict....and I concur with Xiao.
...it ceases to be a discussion when statements such as this are made

Actually that's not true.

.
I respectfully request the true/untrue, right /wrong, my way /highway,. sort of comment to stay out of the conversation

Here is my view of Wicca:
http://everythingunderthemoon.net/forum ... ml#p164283
BB, FF